Brown wrote (see here):
"So, since Brother Garrett cannot deny that Ephesians 5:14 seems to be teaching that children of God can be sleeping and slothful, he wants to suggest that this interpretation cannot be correct because no other passage teaches it?"
Garrett "cannot deny that Ephesians 5: 14 seems to" apply to those already alive? Jason obviously cannot read plain English. I not only can deny it, I did deny it. I showed that to be "among the dead" meant that one was dead, and yet Jason failed to even respond to this argument!
What I was saying is that Jason needs to show another passage where the call to rise from among the dead showed that those called are alive among the dead. The intent was to say this: if Eph. 5: 14 is questionable, then find another passage where rising from among the dead refers to the living coming out from among the dead. The call to find another passage was not to question that Eph. 5: 14 was addressed to the sleeping dead. Is it not a fact that every other passage that speaks of people rising "out from among the dead" shows that the people rising were themselves dead? That is the point! How could you miss it brother? Can you give us clear proof that those among the dead are not dead? This argument destroys Jason's view. All the other NT passages that speak of people among the dead shows that they are dead.
Brown wrote:
"Psalms 88:5 states that David, in his abject spiritual condition, was counted 'among the dead', seemingly totally cut off from all spiritual blessings. There is nothing unbiblical about this idea."
On this verse Dr. Gill wrote:
"...he looked upon himself as a dead man, as one belonging to the state of the dead..."
Further, the context defines clearly what it means to be "among the dead." It is to "lie in the grave" and to be "cut off." David is not looking upon himself as alive among the dead, but looking upon himself as dead among the dead!
Jason says "there is nothing unbiblical about this idea," and yet he cannot show that it is biblical! Again, give us the passage where being "among the dead" is applied to the living!
Brown wrote:
"The fact is that a different Greek word is used for both 'sleeping' and 'dead'. To interpret them as synonyms in the same context is counter-intuitive. Shrygley argues that they both referred to the same spiritually dead state for emphasis (what emphasis?), and he refers to Matt. 9:24 where Christ said, "...the maid is not dead, but sleepeth." The problem is, besides that the word for dead, ἀπέθανεν, in this text is not the same as the 'dead' of Ephes. 5:14, νεκρῶν, is that this text is in a plain context of physical death, not spiritual death, so the contrast of the two senses of death is not the same contrast or context."
The point is that the bible writers often used the word "sleep" in reference to "dead" and sometimes in the same context, whether the word for the dead is apothnēskō or nekros.
The question to be decided is whether Paul uses the word "sleep" in Eph. 5: 14 in the sense of "dead," and the context makes this clear, since those who are called to awake are "among the dead," and never is "among the dead" applied to the living! Address that argument brother Jason and quit dancing all around it!
Jason wrote:
"Now, I'm not intending to fallaciously appeal to consensus, but the fact is that the vast majority of New Testament scholars and commentators view Ephesians 5:14 as the Primitive Baptists do."
How Jason can make such unfounded statements without any proof is astounding. I say the reverse is true. Notice these commentators (both from Calvinists and Arminians):
Matthew Henry
"The apostle further urges this duty from the example of God or Christ: Wherefore he saith, &c. (v. 14); as if he had said, "In doing this, you will copy after the great God, who has set himself to awaken sinners from their sleep, and to raise them from the death of sin, that they might receive light from Christ." He saith. The Lord is constantly saying in his word what is more particularly expressed in Isa. lx. 1. Or, Christ, by his ministers, who preach the everlasting gospel, is continually calling upon sinners to this effect: Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead."
JFB
"Believers are called on to "awake" out of sleep; unbelievers, to "arise" from the dead."
Adam Clark
"Awake, O thou who sleepest, And from the dead arise thou, And Christ shall shine upon thee. See Rosenmuller, Wolf, and others. But it seems more natural to understand the words he saith as referring to the light, i.e. the Gospel, mentioned ver. 13. And the dio legei should be translated, Wherefore IT saith, Awake thou, &c. that is: This is the general, the strong, commanding voice of the Gospel in every part-Receive instruction; leave thy sins, which are leading thee to perdition; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and he will enlighten and save thee...they were asleep-in a state of complete spiritual torpor, yet they might be awoke by the voice of the Gospel..."
Charles Hodge
"As light is thus efficacious, and as it is accessible, or may be obtained, therefore the Scriptures call even upon the sleeping and the dead to arise and meet its life-giving beams...Those asleep and the dead are in darkness, and therefore those involved in spiritual darkness are addressed as sleeping. The light which comes from Christ has power to reach even the dead--as our Lord, in the use of another figure, says, "The hour is coming, and now is, that the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live," John 5, 25. This does not mean that the dead must be revived before they hear the voice of the Son of God, but his voice causes them to hear and live. So the passage before us does not mean that those asleep must arise from the dead and come to Christ for light; but that the light which Christ sheds around him, has power to awake the sleeping dead."
B. W. Johnson
"Wherefore he saith. Who says, or where, is uncertain. There is a similar thought in Isaiah 60:1,2 and Isaiah 26:19. He probably means that God, in substance, says. Awake, thou that sleepest. The sleeper represents one not converted. Arise from the dead. From death in sin (2:1). Conversion is often described as a spiritual resurrection (Rom. 6:4-6; Col. 2:12). And Christ. Christ gives light to all who come to him. The Greek quotation is in verse, and has been translated,
Sleeper, awake; rise from the dead,
And Christ on thee his light shall shed."
John Calvin
"14. Wherefore he saith. Interpreters are at great pains to discover the passage of Scripture which Paul appears to quote, and which is nowhere to be found. I shall state my opinion. He first exhibits Christ as speaking by his ministers; for this is the ordinary message which is every day delivered by preachers of the gospel. What other object do they propose than to raise the dead to life?"
Now, brother Jason, you want to retract what you said?
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