Beliefs about the Afterlife (xxiv)

Thus far we have established the fact that - 

1. There is an afterlife for the spirits of the departed dead  

2. There is a future resurrection for the bodies of the dead 

3. Between death and the resurrection a person is in an intermediate state 

4. Before the death and resurrection of Christ all dead souls went to the Underworld 

{This is the teaching of the old testament and of most ancient civilizations. All departed spirits went to Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek), which refer to the same place (Hades is the new testament word for the Hebrew word Sheol) and this is generally defined as "place/world of the dead."}

5. The place of the departed spirits of the dead (Hades) was a place of rest and delight for the righteous and a place of torment for the unrighteous 

6. Christ descended into Hades in his disembodied spirit when his body died 

7. Christ emptied Hades of all the righteous dead so that Hades now is the place where only the unrighteous dead go 

8. Christ became the forerunner into the "third heaven," or "Paradise," being the place where the righteous now go in spirit when they die. 

We also looked at some important biblical texts concerning the afterlife and resurrection. We also saw how the bible does not teach soul sleep nor soul annihilation, or the views of the Sadducees. We saw how the bible taught the immortality of the soul, a belief also held to by such Pagans as Greek philosopher Socrates. We also saw how the bible taught the doctrine of punishment in the afterlife, even of eternal punishment. In this chapter we will discuss whether there be degrees of punishment in Hell. 

Questions

1) How can there be degrees of punishment in Hell when it is equally "eternal" for all? If all are equally in the fires of Hell, how then can one be more in the fire than others? 

2) Since each doomed soul has lost all good, how then can any single one have more or less good than another? Does "eternal" not only designate the duration of the ordained punishment but the quality of that punishment too? So that "eternal punishment" includes also the idea of "infinite in kind and degree"? 

3) The words of James 2: 10 enter into the discussion of this question. "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it." (Jam. 2: 10) Does that not say that all are equally guilty?

4) Does it not seem that there cannot be degrees of punishment since all are receiving the nth degree of suffering?

5) Do not the scriptures imply that the punishment received in the day of judgment is proportionate to the degree of sin committed? 

6) Do the prisoners of Hell not get some good out of conversing with their fellow prisoners? Or, will they all be in "solitary confinement"?

Let us begin our investigation into possible answers to these questions by city from Got Questions Christian web page (here), where they say (emphasis mine):

"The idea that there are different levels of punishment in hell is graphically portrayed in The Divine Comedy, written by Dante Alighieri between 1308 and 1321. In that poem, the Roman poet Virgil guides Dante through the nine circles of hell. The circles are concentric, representing a gradual increase in wickedness, and culminating at the center of the earth, where Satan is held in bondage. Each circle’s sinners are punished in a fashion befitting their crimes. Each sinner is afflicted for all of eternity by the chief sin he committed. According to Dante, the circles range from the first circle, where dwell the unbaptized and virtuous pagans, to the very center of hell reserved for those who have committed the ultimate sin—treachery against God."

Are there nine levels (floors) in the Underworld of Hades as Dante envisioned? Who knows for sure? That there are levels we have already established. Recall that "Tartarus" was the lowest level of Hades and this is where the fallen angels are kept chained. Further, we saw where Lazarus and Dives were on different levels, Lazarus being on the higher side of the gulf and Dives on the lower side. That is at least three levels. Whether sinners in Hades (or finally in Gehenna) suffer particular punishments for particular characteristic sins as envisioned by Dante, one cannot say for sure. 

The article continues:

"Although the Bible does not specifically say there are different levels of punishment in hell, it does seem to indicate that the judgment will indeed be experienced differently for different people. In Revelation 20:11–15, the people are judged “according to what they had done as recorded in the books” (Revelation 20:12). All the people at this judgment, though, are thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13–15). So, perhaps, the purpose of the judgment is to determine how severe the punishment in hell will be."

I agree with that, but affirm that it still does not answer all the questions raised about the chief question, as enumerated above. Further, if "the day of judgment" in the passages at the heading of this post/chapter refers not to the final great white throne judgment after the Millennium but to that period of time described in the Apocalypse that John the apostle wrote, of the tribulation years of that prophetic "day" of wrath associated with the coming of the "presence" of Christ, then it would not necessarily apply for eternity. During the day of wrath (spanning the years of the Book of Revelation or time of "great tribulation") it will be harder on some nations, cities, and towns, than for others. I believe that both are no doubt true. 

There will be degrees of punishment in the day of judgment that precedes the Millennial reign of Christ and there will be degrees of punishment decreed for those to be condemned to eternal torment at the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20) that follows the Millennium. But, I would not be too dogmatic on the point. We still need to answer the questions raised in our minds by such a belief, which I will do in the next chapter.

The article continues:

"A clearer passage is Luke 10, where Jesus speaks of comparative punishment. First, Jesus says this about a village that rejects the gospel: “I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town” (verse 12). Then He speaks to Bethsaida and Chorazin: “It will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you” (verse 14). Whatever punishment the former residents of Sodom, Tyre, and Sidon were experiencing in hell, the Galilean towns that refused to hear Christ would experience more. The level of punishment in hell seems to be tied to the amount of light a person rejects."

The question here is what is meant by "that day"? The question depends on what is intended by "the judgment" or "day of judgment"  or "that day" in those passages, as we just noted. The words highlighted in red above also seems to me to be the truth. 

The article continues:

"Another indication that hell has different levels of punishment is found in Jesus’ words in Luke 12: “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked” (verses 47–48)."

I believe this is one of the best proofs for the idea that there will be degrees of punishment, and perhaps of kinds of punishment. The punishment is proportionate. 

It also seems just and right. A young man who dies in unbelief and impenitence and yet who was not overly sinful through immoral conduct should not suffer more than say Stalin, Hitler, or Mao, or Judas.

In an Internet article on our subject I found this article - "Are There Degrees of Sin and Punishment in Hell?" by Mary Fairchild (here). She offers insightful thoughts on this area of our subject and in answer to her question (emphasis mine):

"That's a tough question. For believers, it stirs up doubts and concerns about the nature and justice of God. But that's precisely why it's a great question to consider. A 10-year-old boy in the scenario brings up a topic known as age of accountability, however, we'll save that for another study. The Bible gives us only limited information about Heaven, Hell, and the afterlife." 

I certainly agree. It is indeed a great question for us to muse upon and we should be thankful for the information God has revealed to us, limited as it is now. Further, curiosity in itself is not always a bad thing as respects bible study. How many sinners have been saved and converted by picking up the bible for the first time out of curiosity only to end up believing it? How many sinners have come to church or camp meeting out of curiosity and left born again? Yes, "curiosity can kill the cat" but not always. God has his "secret things" and these are things he has not revealed (as the text says - Deut. 29: 29) and we should not pry into those things. We ought not to be given to speculation but be moderate (for all speculation is not bad either). But, who can help but be curious about eternal punishment and the justice of God in the day of judgment?

She wrote further:   

"There are some aspects of eternity we'll never fully understand, at least on this side of Heaven. God simply has not revealed everything to us through Scripture. Yet, the Bible does seem to suggest varying degrees of punishment in Hell for unbelievers, just as it speaks of different rewards in Heaven for believers based on deeds done here on earth."

I do agree that this is the teaching of scripture.

She wrote further:   

"The Bible does not expressly state that a person's punishment in Hell is based on the seriousness of his or her sins. The idea, however, is implied in several places."

I again agree and believe that the scriptures typically cited to prove it, as at the heading of this chapter, and in those referred to under its head, do indicate it. 

In the next chapter we will continue our look at this aspect of our subject of the afterlife.

Is It True What the Old Saints Predicted?

In my 50+ years of bible study I have read lots of writings by Christian writers over the past two thousand years. I have also been in conversations with many such folks in my lifetime. Many of those writers and people, especially preachers and teachers of the word, have said that they thought that "more light would be given to end time believers" regarding end time events and second coming texts of scripture. I always felt that way also. But I never tried to put together all my increasing thoughts on that subject (which I may do in the future) but I have shown, over the past few years, how at least a few passages support that idea, such as: 1) the rising of the Day Star in the hearts of end time believers, and 2) the knocking of Christ at the door just prior to his return or entering into our world, 3) Etc.

True born again believers, like all of creation, are in labor pains for the coming of the Lord. (Romans 8) Are your labor pains telling you that the birth is now imminent?

Well, if that is true, why scoff at other Christians who may be in the process of receiving that greater light on the subject of the second coming of Christ?

What think ye?

Date Setter?

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." (Mal. 4: 5)

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things." (Matt. 17: 11)

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself." (Dan. 9: 25-26 kjv)

"And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ." (Luke 2: 25-26)

What do these verses have in common? 

1. They show that the people living in the days preceding the first coming of the Lord should have known the time when Christ would be born. They should have known at least the year (and even the day as I believe along with others). 

2. Simeon was given special revelation about the time of Christ' return, believing that Christ would come before he died. I have no doubt that many of the saints who live unto the second coming of the Lord will also be given revelation of Christ coming in their days.

3. The coming of Elijah in the person of John the Baptist signaled that Christ was coming on the heels of the Baptist heralding his arrival. 

4. Elijah will come again also, in a more literal way than in the Baptist, and before the second coming of Christ, for he is one of the two witnesses who appear before the visible coming of Christ in the heavens as the Apocalypse shows.

Those who scoff at those of us who believe that we can know the time of the second coming (for we know the signs of his coming, or the times and seasons, so that the day of the Lord will come as we are expecting) are harming themselves and others who are only following scripture. Yes, we do not know the day or hour of the second coming of the Lord, but to say that we cannot know the season, and perhaps the year (2030) is denying what was the pattern that was set for his first coming. 

Someone cries - "every date setter so far has been wrong." Ergo, all date setting is wrong.

How fallacious is this reasoning! If we followed it we would have to say that because a weatherman was wrong on one of his/her forecasts (predictions) we should therefore think he/she can never be right. The same with those who make economic forecasts. Why is all religious forecasting of prophetic events to be rejected? So what if some false prophets gave false prophecies, or false interpretations of prophecies? That fact does not mean all predicting is to be ignored.

Jesus said his coming would be like a woman being in travail (labor pains). Doctors predict the time when a newly conceived baby will be born, even giving a "due date" for the birth. Many times a mother gives birth before the "due date" and some after. Very few doctors miss being right in forecasting the month of the birth. So too we may not know the exact day or hour of the Lord's coming, but when the travail of our planet begins (Rom. 8: 22-23), we will then know the coming forth of the baby is immediate.

 

Was Daniel a date setter for giving the time when Christ would be born? Was John the Baptist a date setter? Was Hosea who said "after two days he will revive us" and "in the third day he will raise us up and live in his sight"? (Hosea 6: 1-2)

Preparing For An Angrier World?

WEF founder, and a chief conspirator to bring about the final empire of evil under the beast of Revelation, or Antichrist, Klaus Schwab, of Davos, Switzerland,  (the place where the wealthy ruling elite meet and plan their strategies under the direction of Lucifer or Satan) has said that the plan is to bring about a new world order where "you will own nothing and be happy" (of which I have written about before, as have others) and also has said that in carrying out the 2030 agenda that we "must prepare for an angrier world."

Yes, anger everywhere! Do we not see anger and wrath everywhere throughout the Book of Revelation during the time of "great tribulation"? I wrote the following about this in a post dealing with the rider on the red horse in Revelation (See here):

A Climate Of Rage

Having called attention to the central sin of hubris, and of the general lawlessness, violence, and widespread depravity of the last and most wicked generation, and of the other evils that attend that state (arrogance, insults, shaming the weak, etc.), we now enlarge upon those other sins of those "evil days," and of course, in doing so, we must speak of man's unjust wrath and rage, of which the apostle says - "the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God." (James 1: 20) The anger and wrath of depraved man will become a violent rage at the time of the Apocalypse.

Said the apostle Peter:

"Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." (Acts 4: 25-28 citing Psalm 2: 1)

This literally occurred when Christ's enemies were "enraged against" him as Peter describes. But, such a thing not only characterized the mass of the peoples when Christ came the first, but will also characterize the state of the masses (and their leaders) at the time when the first seal opens, at Christ's coming the second. The rulers and the people in general will be filled with rage. The word "rage" (Greek ἐφρύαξαν) is interesting. "Only here in New Testament. Originally, to neigh or snort like a horse. Of men, to give one's self haughty airs, and to act and speak insolently." (Vincent's Word Studies) The Greek word was primarily used of "the snorting, neighing and prancing of horses;" hence, metaphorically, of "the haughtiness and insolence of men," Act 4:25. In the Sept., Psa 2:1." (Vine) Strong adds that it includes the idea of being "high-spirited," and of men "taking on lofty airs," and "behaving arrogantly," and being "tumultuous."

What a "social climate" that will be!

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." (Rev. 11: 18 kjv)

There is a lot of anger and wrath, rage and outrage, in Revelation! There is the anger of "the nations (or races)," and the "wrath" of the devil (Rev. 12: 12), and of course lots of references to "the wrath of God" and "of the Lamb." Along with hubris is a society of angry hot tempered people.

We are on the verge of the wrath of God. Further, we are beginning to see the wrath of evil men and devils and I think Schwab is right about that. I wrote about that as what we see occurring under the red horse rider when people are killing each other.

"Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain." 

(Psa. 76: 10)

Will You Hear Him Knocking?

"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately." (Luke 12: 36)

In talking about the rising of the "Day Star" in the hearts of believers in the time immediately preceding the parousia (coming presence) of Christ a few years back I wrote:

"Believing strongly as I do that I may yet see the coming of the Lord and of that glorious day, I am looking for the Lord's "knocking" and for the day star to rise in my heart! I look forward to being an eyewitness and participant in the events scheduled by God for the "end of days." Are you eagerly watching for the signs of his coming? Are you prepared for that day?" (See here) 

Two things will happen within the hearts of true believers in the days of Christ's coming, both immediately before it and during it: 1) The Day Star will arise in the hearts of believers (II Peter 1: 19), 2) Christ will "knock" at the doors of the hearts of believers, and of churches, and in other ways. 

Are you "on alert" for these things? (See my posting Sound The Alarm) I am beginning to sense the Day Star's rising and am perhaps beginning to hear the knocks of Christ at the door of our world. "The judge (Christ) stands before the door" said James. (James 5: 9) Will you be able to "open to him immediately" as a result of hearing the knocks? 

Gospel Tidbits from Dr. Bass

Dr. Jeremiah Bass, pastor of Cincinnati Primitive Baptist Church, has written some good posts in his daily blog post on the church's web page. Here are some excellent words from him. It expresses real Old or Primitive Baptist teaching, and the truth of the bible. 

"For we are not talking into a busy signal or a disconnected line, but through Christ we have access by one Spirit unto the Father (Eph. 2:18)." (The God Who Listens)

Praise the Lord for his loving us enough to listen to us! The Sovereign of the Universe always ready to hear us! All through Christ alone!

"All who are related to God's own Son by faith become by union with him the children of God, and with that all the blessings and privileges which that relation constitutes and implies."  (What manner of love)

That is a truly biblical ordo salutis and what our primitive Baptist forefathers taught (expressed in the London and Philadelphia confessions). 

"There is assurance to be had here. Our Heavenly Father is not pleased when we slump around in the shadows of doubt and uncertainty. Rather, we are meant to take him at his word and embrace through Christ this great gift of God's love to us." (Ibid)

Amen! No need to sing "Tis a point I long to know! Am I his or am I not?" 

2030 & Christ's Return

I just finished listening to a two hour video titled "Messiah 2030 ~ The Prophetic Messianic Timeline" (here) and I highly recommend that you take the time to watch it as the author, Clive Douglas Campbell, gives much evidence to show that the return of Christ occurs in 2030, a viewpoint shared by others, including myself. See the following posts on Hosea's two and three day prophecy (here) (here) (here). Campbell's video has been out a little over a month and it already has 539K views and 3,944 Comments. 

Below the video screen we have these words: 

"Dozens of Biblical prophecies not only point to the exact year of the Messiah's first coming (30 C.E.), but those same prophecies even point to the year of his return (2030 C.E.). It has all been hidden in plain sight for thousands of years."

And, 

"No man knows the day and hour of the Messiah's return, however the Bible makes it definitively clear we are to know the season (Matt 24: 32-36)." 

"This is a call for a watch, not setting a date. If your house is not in order, and you do not know our Savior, there is no time like the present. Timestamps to the 40 messianic timing prophecies covered in the film: 

1:54 The Creation Prophecy 18:10 The Sabbath Prophecy 21:10 The Four of Seven Prophecy 24:20 The Fourth Commandment Prophecy 24:54 The Hosea Prophecy 25:29 The Jubilee Principle 26:52 The Genesis 6 Prophecy 28:54 The Death of Moses Prophecy 29:50 The Jubilee Prophecy 33:25 The Exodus Prophecy 35:18 The 2,000 Cubits Prophecy 36:24 The Lazarus Prophecy 40:59 The Woman at the Well Prophecy 44:25 The Official’s Son Prophecy 46:40 The Good Samaritan Prophecy 47:53 The Fasting Prophecy 49:05 The Mount Sinai Prophecy 50:56 The Healing on the Sabbath Prophecy 52:10 Ascending the Mountain Prophecy 53:57 The Ascension Prophecy 54:54 The Transfiguration Prophecy 57:01 The Job Prophecy 57:49 The Temple Prophecy 1:06:29 The Servant Prophecy 1:08:11 The Land Rest Prophecy 1:08:49 The Appearing on the Seventh Day Prophecy 1:09:35 The David and Goliath Prophecy 1:12:10 The Wedding Day Prophecy 1:13:43 The Jonah Prophecy 1:18:45 The Jericho Prophecy 1:20:04 The Feeding of the Four Thousand Prophecy 1:23:04 The Esther Prophecy 1:25:06 The Three Measures of Leaven Prophecy 1:26:47 The Enoch Prophecy 1:27:50 The Birth Pang Prophecy 1:29:31 The Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Messiah in 30 C.E. 1:38:41 The Fig Tree Prophecy 1:42:07 The Eighth Day 1:42:36 The Circumcision Prophecy 1:47:13 The Sukkot Prophecy  

1:58:31 The Menorah Prophecy

I cannot say that I agree with Campbell on everything, but I can say that I cannot refute the evidence he puts forth for Christ' return in 2030. Is it not interesting that the year 2030 is also the time when the conspirators of the WEF and Davos, under the direction of Satan and Antichrist, put forth as the time when "you will own nothing and be happy"? The bold print on the list above I consider as very strong proofs.

In trying to find out biographical information on brother Campbell, I did find where he is from Manitoba and was born in 1952. I also found "AN OPEN LETTER TO THE WORLD" by Clive Campbell 03/31/23 (here) where he writes 

"As a Christian and fellow human being, I believe and feel that I would not be loving you well if I didn't tell you where I believe we are in human history. The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was crucified, buried, rose and ascended, I am quite sure, in 30 AD. He rose at dawn of the 3rd day (Easter Sunday morning) to show that He would return as King of kings at dawn of the 3rd millennial "day," thus between Nisan 1, 2030 and Nisan 1, 2031. I am afraid the Bible tells us that the last 7 years before that, initiated by the Resurrection and Rapture of God's dead and living people to heaven, will be a horrendous time of God's judgment and wrath on sinful man, culminating in nuclear fire, no doubt. Thus, I believe that these 7 years will begin sometime between Nisan 1 (March 23), 2023, eight days ago, and Nisan 1 (April 9), 2024. The end-times signs abound: Israel's prophesied rebirth in 1948; 9/11 in 2001 ("trumpeting" the 29-year countdown to the Second Coming); COVID hitting Israel in 2020 ("trumpeting" the 10-year countdown to the Second Coming); Israel's prophesied war with Iran looming; the prophesied 10-state empire (the Commonwealth of Independent States, the CIS, the daughter of the 15-state USSR, with Russia at its head) on the scene; the assassination of Putin by the Jewish Antichrist (General Valery Gerasimov?) and his attack on Israel shaping up; not to mention the rampant evils of abortion, other murder, crime, violence, sexual immorality, gender confusion, etc." 

Again, I cannot say that I accept all his prophecy insights, however, I cannot disprove it. All he is doing is adding proofs to proofs, though some are stronger than others. I certainly do not believe in a pre tribulation rapture nor that the tribulation and day of judgment last only seven years (as I have written about). Christ coming involves many things. I don't think he is right about the ten kings/toes. I do think Antichrist will be Jewish (being Judas come back from the dead), but whether Gerasimov is he is not known. 

He also wrote:

"Below is a link to a video message on The Gospel of God, which I implore you to watch and listen to carefully. Please do the same with the 4 videos after it and even the ones before it, if you wish. Also, please share this letter with others. Thank you, in advance. 

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/handout-apologetics/the-gospel-of-god-3437 

Love and may God save you and yours,  A Christian and fellow human being, 

Clive Douglas Campbell

I don't know how connected doctrinally to Ligonier is Campbell. He does say - "Author requests article critique". 

Again, seeing how close we are to 2030, and seeing how things are happening so fast, with numerous prophetic signs, signs of the times, it certainly is worth your time to listen to it. It is time to get ready my brothers. Our redemption draws near.

Beliefs about the Afterlife (xxiii)

"Yet at the scent of water it will bud 

And bring forth branches like a plant"

In this chapter we will consider a few additional texts from the old testament about the afterlife. After that, we will address some other questions about the afterlife, such as about degrees of rewards and punishments in the afterlife, about the justice of eternal punishment, etc., and then we will conclude this series on the afterlife by speaking of the hope and expectation of Christians versus those who are not Christian, and also discuss what it will be like to live forever without fear of dying and without any moral or spiritual faults, without sin. 

In previous chapters we have referred to a text from the Book of Job in regard to the afterlife. In this chapter we want to take a closer look at one of the chief passages on that subject from that inspired book. 

Job's Testimony

“For there is hope for a tree, If it is cut down, that it will sprout again, And that its tender shoots will not cease. Though its root may grow old in the earth, And its stump may die in the ground, Yet at the scent of water it will bud And bring forth branches like a plant. But man dies and is laid away; Indeed he breathes his last And where is he? As water disappears from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dries up, So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, They will not awake Nor be roused from their sleep. “Oh, that You would hide me in the grave (sheol), That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, Till my change comes. You shall call, and I will answer You; You shall desire the work of Your hands." (Job 14: 7-15 nkjv)

These words seem, at the outset, to deny life after death, or a future resurrection of the body. It seems that Job moans over the fact that man is worse off than a dead stump, for a dead stump may yet sprout new life, but not so with men. He says "so man lies down and does not rise" and "they shall not awake." But, there is that phrase "till the heavens are no more." So, is Job saying the body will not live again, unlike the stump? Or, is he saying it will not live again till the resurrection? How does he answer his own question - "if a man dies, shall he live again?" In one part of his words he seems to view the body as forever dead (unlike the dead stump that may revive at the scent of water) and in another part he seems to affirm a coming resurrection of the body. 

Commented Dr. Gill on verse 12:

"till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep; for so the words are to be read, not in connection with those that go before, but with the last clauses; though the sense is much the same either way, which is, that those who are fallen asleep by death, and lie sleeping in their graves, and on their beds, these shall neither awake of themselves, nor be awaked by others, "till the heavens be no more"; that is, never, so as to awake and arise of themselves, and to this natural life, and to be concerned in the business of it; which sometimes seems to be the sense of this phrase, see Psalm 89:29, Matthew 5:18; or, as some render it, "till the heavens are wore out", or "waxen old" (c); as they will like a garment, and be folded up, and laid aside, as to their present use, Psalm 102:26; or till they shall vanish away, and be no more, as to their present form, quality, and use, though they may exist as to substance; and when this will be the case, as it will be when the Judge shall appear, when Christ shall come a second time to judge the world; then the earth and heaven will flee away from his face, the earth and its works shall be burnt up, and the heavens shall pass away with great noise; and then, and not till then, will the dead, or those that are asleep in their graves, be awaked by the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God, and they shall be raised from their sleepy beds, awake and arise, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Dr. Gill gives us an either or choice of interpretations for the words "till the heavens are no more." Are we to interpret this as "never"? That it means the same as saying "till hell freezes over"? 

It seems to me that it does not mean "never," because 1) the words that follow that expression speak of a time when Job said that he will awake in body at the last day, and 2) the bible does say that the heavens will pass away at the end of the last age, which is the present age. (Matt. 24: 35: II Peter 3: 10; Heb. 1: 10-11). That is when the one who died will "live again" in body. 

The time between death and resurrection (intermediate state) does not seem to be expressly mentioned by Job in this passage, the focus being on the death of the body. He does say that this intermediate time will be when he is "in hiding in Sheol," and when he will be "concealed." Are these words applicable to the body or spirit? Does it mean his being hidden in a coffin or in the ground? Or, that it includes the idea that his spirit or soul would also be in Sheol or Hades, in that part of it where the righteous are resting? Could it therefore be applicable to both Job's body and spirit? 

Consider Paul's statement relative to the family of God. He says "of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named." (Eph.3: 15) How is "the family of God" (the whole number of saved people who have been born) in both heaven and earth at the same time? 

The family members who are in heaven are believers who have lived and died and gone to heaven in spirit and the family members on earth are believers who are yet living on earth. The family members in heaven are thus hidden or concealed from our view. 

Here are the comments of Dr. Albert Barnes in his commentary on Job 14: 7:

"For there is hope of a tree - This passage to Job 14:12, is one of exquisite beauty. Its object is to state reasons why man should be permitted to enjoy this life. A tree, if cut down, might spring up again and flourish; but not man. He died to rise no more; he is cut down and lives not again. The passage is important as expressing the prevalent sentiment of the time in which Job lived about the future condition of man, and is one that deserves a close examination. The great question is, whether Job believed in the future state, or in the resurrection of the dead? On this question one or two things are clear at the outset. 

 

(1) He did not believe that man would spring up from the grave in any sense* similar to the mode in which the sprout or germ of a tree grows up when the tree is cut down. 

 

(2) He did not believe in the doctrine of metempsychosis, or transmigration of souls; a doctrine that was so common among the ancients. 

 

*But it cannot be correct to say that the living again of plants that have died in no sense is "similar to" the resurrection of human bodies, as we will shortly show. Further, he does not say that dead human bodies won't revive as the dead stump, but says such will 

1) not happen till the heavens be no more (which occurs at the last day) and 

2) not be a restoration of or return to the former life in old heavens and earth. 

Said Barnes:

"In this respect the patriarchal religion stood aloof from the systems of paganism, and there is not to be found, that I know of, any expression that would lead us to suppose that they had ever embraced it, or had even heard of it. The general sentiment here is, that if a tree is cut down, it may be expected to shoot up again, and another tree will be found in its place - as is the case with the chestnut, the willow, the oak. But Job says that there was nothing like this to happen to man. There was no root, no germ, no seminal principle from which he would be made to live again on the earth. He was to be finally cut off, from all his pleasures and his friends here, and to go away to return no more. Still, that Job believed in his continued existence beyond the grave - his existence in the dark and gloomy world of shades, is apparent from the whole book, and indeed from the very passage before us; see Job 14:13 - compare Job 10:21-22. The image here is one that is very beautiful, and one that is often employed by poets." 

Yes, the way that a plant dies and is reborn or revived is unlike the resurrection of physical human bodies in that the latter is not the result of forces within nature or in the thing that has died but rather is the result of the work of Christ at his second coming in calling the dead to life. 

The Evergreen and the palm tree have been from ancient times symbols of renewal, of eternal life and immortality, of flourishing. But, the image at the heading of this chapter of a stump having new growth is a picture of resurrection like the caterpillar is a picture of transformation as it becomes a butterfly. So too is Spring time generally viewed as a picture of rebirth from the dead of Winter. 

Of course, Job is not denying an afterlife for the spirit nor of a future resurrection for the body in his words in this chapter, though he might seem to do so in part. Said Job later in his dialogues:

"For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!" (19: 25-27 nkjv) 

So, both chapters uphold the belief in a future resurrection of the bodies of the dead.

So, is the living again of a dead tree trunk a picture of bodily resurrection or not? Answer: yes and no, as we have seen.

It is interesting that Job speaks of how dead stumps can live again after having been "cut down." It is a picture in some respects of the resurrection. Both Jesus and Paul thought so. Said Christ Jesus:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." (John 12: 24)

Said Paul:

"But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body." (I Cor. 15: 35-38)

Death and renewal in the plant world is indeed a picture, in some respects, of death and resurrection in the world of human beings. Christ, according to the flesh, is thus described:

"Like a young plant or a root that sprouts in dry ground, the servant grew up obeying the LORD." (Isa. 53: 2 Contemporary English Version)

This is a picture of Christ being born and beginning to live. But, not only is it a picture of coming to life the first time (in the womb) but a living again after having died. We also see this pictured in the phenomenon of Aaron's rod that budded. 

"Now it came to pass on the next day that Moses went into the tabernacle of witness, and behold, the rod of Aaron, of the house of Levi, had sprouted and put forth buds, had produced blossoms and yielded ripe almonds." (Numb. 17: 8) 

That rod (walking cane) was dead wood and yet it lived again and flourished. That is a picture of Christ' resurrection as is the shoot from a stump that has been "cut down" and died and was regenerated.

A Final Word From Solomon

“A good name is better than a good ointment, and the day of one’s death is better than the day of one’s birth. It is better to go to a house of mourning than to go to a house of feasting, because that is the end of every man, and the living takes it to heart.” (Eccl. 7: 1-2)

Is "the day of one's death better than the day of one's birth"? I can see how it is true in regard to certain people and groups. But, I can't see how it is true for those who die in their sins and go to everlasting torment. I also can't see how it would be true of Judas Iscariot, for Christ says of him "woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” (Matt. 26: 24) 

Also, Solomon's statement seems to be applied to all men, and not just to righteous and saved persons. He does not say "the day of someone's death" or "someone's birth," but "the day of one's death" and "day of one's birth." Can we say "Tis better to have lived and died than never to have lived at all"? (Similarly to "Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" - Tenyson). 

Solomon's statement and observation is similar to these words also in Ecclesiastes: "Better is the end of a thing than the beginning thereof: and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit." (7: 8)

Is the end of life better for all men or only better for the saved?

Wrote one commentary on 7:1 (expressing a common interpretation):

"The thought in this clause is closely connected with the preceding. If a man's life is such that he leaves a good name behind him, then the day of his departure is better than that of his birth..." (Pulpit Commentary) 

Yes, it could be that Solomon is limiting his statement to those who have a good name and character. However, it could be that Solomon is giving again the way things seem to a man who looks at things without a divine revelation or interpretation of things. How many times have people said about a person who died after years of intense physical pain and suffering - "he is really better off"? We say that because we see his sufferings on earth as ended. Most times, however, we conclude that a "living dog is better than a dead lion." 

As far as what happens on earth "under the sun" it does seem to be better to die than to live for some of both the righteous and unrighteous. That statement seems to be made without any regard to the state of the spirit of the deceased, and is true of all as regards the body. That being so, it is true that all physical bodies are better off dead, for now they are free from bodily suffering and pain (in that intermediate state). 

In the concluding chapters, which are contemplated as few, we will look at certain questions about the afterlife, such as "what will it be like to live in heaven on earth?" And, "what will we be doing for all eternity?" "Will we ever get bored?" "Is sinning and falling from heaven possible?" "Will we have free will in heaven or the capability to do evil?" We will also discuss whether there be degrees of rewards and punishments in the afterlife. We will close by talking about the Christian's hope in regard to the afterlife.

Are All Hardshells Lost?

I have been asked this question several times through the years. Recently I had some talks with a sister over this question. Seeing they so clearly oppose scripture, teaching heresy, how can they be saved? Well, since then, I came across an old article of mine wherein I said the following:

"Hardshellism is a disease in the body of Christ. Hardshell teaching against the idea that one must believe in Jesus to be saved is serious. God is not pleased with such teaching. It is anti-gospel. God's word is "believe and be saved" (Acts 16: 31) but the Hardshell word is "be saved whether you believe or not." God's word says that the wrath of God abides on the unbeliever, but Hardshells believe many unbelievers are justified from such wrath. (John 3: 36) Now, I do not say that all Hardshells are damned, because many of them truly do believe in Jesus and in the gospel. But, that is not to say that God will not judge them severely for their preaching an anti-gospel." (From my article in The Baptist Gadfly Faith In The Blood)

That is still my view.

The question for discussion, with fear and trembling, is this: what errors in bible doctrine are eternally damning to believe? Or, how much error can a person believe and yet be saved? 

Today's Hardshells go to one extreme in affirming that one does not have to believe the truth on anything to be saved. They will argue this way in support of that view: infants who die in infancy and idiots without cognitive ability go to heaven and they did not believe in any truth or any error. So, it is the same way with those who are not infants or idiots. 

Some go to another extreme and argue that one must be right on nearly every bible doctrine to be saved. We see such people in some Calvinist groups and in some Arminian groups, such as the "Church of Christ" or "Campbellite" people. 

The following verses tell us that what we believe is important and that we should be on guard against heresy, which is a work of the flesh. (See Gal. 5: 19-23)

"...he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Heb. 11: 6)

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Rom. 10: 9)

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." (II John 9)

The Title "Reverend"

"strive not about words to no profit" 

(II Tim. 2: 14

Brother and Reverend Ken Mann, blog contributor, queried, in my recent post on John Leland, about Leland using the word or title of "reverend" when he wrote a letter to a fellow preacher. I made comment to his comment and stated that I did not know the history of using that term among Baptists but did know that many Baptists have objected to it, some vehemently, as the Hardshell Baptists, and that I thought it was straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel, especially in their case, or was making mountains out of molehills. 

When brother Mann raised the question about the origin and history of this word's use among Baptists, I at first thought in my mind how I knew I had seen other old Baptists (of the 17th and 18th centuries and later) use the term in their writings and correspondence. So, I decided to do a Google search and turned up some information I wish to share with our readers and whoever in the future may find this web page. 

Britannica (here) says of the term "Reverend": 

"reverend, the ordinary English prefix of written address to the names of ministers of most Christian denominations. In the 15th century it was used as a general term of respectful address, but it has been habitually used as a title prefixed to the names of ordained clergymen since the 17th century."

Thus, as I stated in my comment to brother Mann, women are to reverence their husbands and call them lord, which was a show of respect.

I then found this article, titled "WHAT TITLE SHOULD MINISTERS USE?"  by Elder H. C. Vanderpool, Th. D., of Hendersonville, TN (See here). I will cite from this article now. In it he also cites from a paper by fellow minister F. R. Bingham, pastor of Jordan Baptist Church in Illinois, and Editor of the Baptist Instructor. I recommend that the whole article be read. Here are some excerpts that reflect my view.

Says Elder Vanderpool (emphasis mine):

"A few days ago I received a phone call, and a friend of the caller wanted me to send him the history of the Southern Baptist Convention, and when they began to use the title "Reverend" for ministers. 

 

First, the S.B.C. was organized at Augusta, Georgia in 1845. The information on it is found in Twentieth Century Baptists, pp. 308-322. This will also be in Twentieth Century Baptists - Volume Two, which I hope to have written, printed and ready for distribution in the Fall of 1996. 

 

The truth is, Baptists were using the name "Reverend" 150 years and more before the S.B.C. was organized. The convention did not begin that title, but those we call Old Time Baptists (The oldest ones in America) began the use of that title.

The Philadelphia Baptist Association was organized on the 27th day of the 7th month, on the 7th day of the week in the year 1707 (which would be July 17, 1707). All our true Baptists today trace our history back through that Association. The ministers of those days were well educated and most of them were called "Reverend" or "Doctor". Some used "Brother". These titles were used for almost a century, and on their records for 1790, they began to use "Elder" along with the other titles. So, "Reverend" was used over a hundred years back into the Baptists before coming to America; before they used the title "Elder."

Note: I doubt all Baptists will agree with the statement "all our true Baptists today trace our history back through" the Philadelphia Association. 

Wrote Vanderpool:

"In the History of the Philadelphia Association, pp 254-255, "Elder" was used along with "Reverend," "Brother," and "Doctor." All four titles were used on these two pages."

"When I began to prepare this material for the Brother who had asked for it, I remembered that Brother F. R. Bingham, pastor of Jordan Baptist Church in Illinois, and Editor of the Baptist Instructor, had written an article on this subject. I found the Article in the Baptist Banner files of July 1968, over 27 years ago. I agree with Pastor Bingham, and wish our people, especially our preacher Brethren would study their Hebrew and Greek and find out the truth before becoming so critical of what actually is the truth in God's Word." 

 

"I have never preached out of any Bible except the King James Version. However, the Bible was rewritten and revised 14 times before the King James Version was written in 1611. So, Baptists preached out of other versions over 1600 years before the KJV was written." 

This comment is a little off the subject, but I think the purpose is to caution Baptists about speaking too rigidly about traditions within our Baptist family. I do agree with his comment, however. 

Wrote Vanderpool:

"Now here is the article by Pastor Bingham which I agree with: 

SHOULD A PREACHER BE REFERRED TO AS REVEREND? 

by Pastor F. R. Bingham 

 

"The other day I received a communication from a brother who objected strongly to being addressed as "Rev. (so and so). He said, "I am not a reverend." I have heard this objection for all the years of my ministry (35 of them) from various preachers, and almost as if it were sinful and blasphemous for a minister to use this title. The objection is always based on Psalm 111:9, where it said "....Reverend is his name," meaning, of course, the Lord. And this would mean for anyone else to use this name is to appropriate unto himself the name of deity, with the identity of being God."

"But there have always been those who strain at gnats and swallow camels; who are pharisaically hyper-critical of others over little things of no real consequence after all; and I suppose there will always be such among us."

This article by brother Bingham was published in the Baptist Banner, July 1968, of which Elder H. C. Vanderpool was Editor.

It is interesting that brother Bingham saw what I later also saw, how it was a case, many times, of straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

Excerpts from Leland

In a follow up to the preceding post on Elder John Leland, I wish to add some things that elder Leland wrote to a brother Cone. It was sent to Cone who sent it to be published in a periodical. (See here) It is dated Dec. 10, 1826. In the citations given, all emphasis is mine. It was addressed to - 

"Rev. Spencer H. Cone, living in the city of regeneration, Grace Street - Penitent Alley - at the Sign of the Cross, next door to glory."

 He writes to Cone thusly:

"MY GOOD BROTHER CONE, - 

 

I, John, who also am your brother and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the city of Albany last August, where I formed a momentary acquaintance with yourself and brother Maclay. The Christian kindness which you and your elect lady expressed at our parting, fixed a soft affection in my heart, which I wish to indulge in a letter of friendship.

From a septennarian, whose sun is declining on the western hills, you will not expect energy of mind, logical argument, coherent reasoning, nor pomp of diction; but contrary-wise, a sickening dose of egotism.

You will judge best of my health, by hearing that I breathe, in common, twenty-four times each minute, and my pulses beat three times as often: which health and strength I have employed, the summer past, in travelling and preaching; which, by the bye, has been my constant practice for more than fifty-two years, with a few small exceptions. Since the first of June last, I have attended three associations, seen eighty-six Baptist preachers, and tried to preach eighty-one times. In retrospecting my life, I do not much reproach myself for not giving myself to the work, as far as domestic duties admitted; but the lack of divine love - little care for the souls of men - weakness in handling the word of life - mangling heavenly truths with an unhallowed tongue - a proud desire to make God's stream turn my own mill, &c., sink me in the dust, and fill my soul with shame before God and man."

I would that our Hardshell brethren would confess the same!

Wrote Leland:

"It has, in the course of my ministry, been a question of no small magnitude, to know how to address a congregation of sinners, as such, in gospel style. When I turn my eyes to the upper book, (the eternal designs of God,) I there read that God's work is before him, and that he works all things according to the counsel of his own will; that neither a sparrow, nor a hair of the head, can fall without our Heavenly Father; that providence and grace are the agents to execute his purposes. But when I look into the lower book, (the freedom of the human will,) I find that condemnation is conditional: "Oh that thou hadst hearkened unto me, then had your peace been as a river; - seeing ye judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo! we turn to the Gentiles," &c. If I do not read and believe the upper book, I impeach the omniscience and wisdom of Jehovah. And if do not likewise read and believe the lower book, I deny the possibility of guilt or blame. I must, therefore, believe both; and where I cannot comprehend, I will adore; where I cannot read, I will spell; and what I cannot spell out, I must skip. If the human mind should be so enlarged that it could solve every difficulty that has hitherto appeared, that same enlargement of thought would unfold a thousand difficulties more, so subtile and minute, that it never felt their weight before; so that there would be no getting through!"

These are similar words to those which would later be said by Charles Spurgeon. It seems that both Leland and Spurgeon would be called "Compatibilists."

Wrote Leland:

"It has been rather trying times for Baptist preachers, who have travelled and labored day and night for the good of souls: like the mules which Agelastus saw, they have been loaded with figs, and feeding upon thistles. What the new order of missionary funds and exertions will do, I cannot say; whether there is goodness enough in men to be pampered without growing indolent and haughty, is a question." 

This shows that Leland had sympathies with many of the objections the Hardshells had against missionary efforts but he shows a willingness to be open on the subject and to allow God to show which side he favored.