Flowers states at about the 28 minute mark:
Believing in Christ (and his death, burial, and resurrection) is not a necessary condition (though it may be a sufficient condition) for being saved.
This question is a hot potato and if you listen to them ramble on over the question, stumbling as they go, that will become apparent. It has always been a hot potato question with those who oppose Calvinism as well as Hyper Calvinists.
These brethren did not want to admit that any lived who did not have a chance to be saved, i.e. did not have enough revelation in creation to be saved. The question is not, however, whether all men have sufficient revelation to condemn them, but rather whether they all have sufficient revelation to save them.
Flowers even brought up the case of infants and OT people among the Gentiles as examples of those who are saved apart from faith in Christ. It sounded like he was a Hardshell Baptist. In fact, all three sounded like Hardshells on this point. They all affirmed that believing in Christ was not essential to salvation. They all taught that general revelation in creation was enough for salvation. That is not old Baptist doctrine. They also taught that people are saved apart from the preaching of the gospel. That is hardshellism.
I believe one must believe in Christ to be saved and in order to believe they must hear about Christ. (Rom. 10) The fact that many have died without knowing the word of God or the gospel is proof that God does not owe everyone a chance (or opportunity) to be saved. If he did he would see to it that all heard the gospel. Nor does he owe everyone equal opportunity to be saved. Some are born with greater advantages towards being saved than others. The fact that some die without any chance of being saved is proof that they were not chosen to salvation.
3 comments:
I have reached out to Leighton Flowers for clarification on this, and will see if he responds. I agree with you Bro Stephen, that without faith in Christ, there is no salvation. Most of us who espouse a belief in general atonement would never say such a thing. However I would disagree with you that God doesnt offer a "chance" to all persons. It is BECAUSE all are without excuse, that all have received more revelation than they deserve. Here is the view that most in my camp would hold to.
1. God does not "owe" us anything. However it is precisely BECAUSE He doesnt owe us anything that demonstrates His endless love is so precious
2. The Bible declares that "even nature declares the glory of God" so unbelievers have revelation. If someone in any place will simply look around them, they will know their idols whether literal or otherwise, are a false gods. Most missionaries that I know feel a calling from God to go to a certain place. They will tell you that once they get there, there has ALWAYS been a person who cried for God to reveal Himself. This has happened in a village in the jungle where a person realized the idols of wood had no power, and it has happened in cities in so called "Christian" countries where the "churches" there had no power.
3. The person who sees this is NOT saved until they hear and believe the gospel. However, I believe God keeps them "safe" (from physical death) until they do hear the gospel. As a result of a missionary being obedient to God's call, many others hear and believe the gospel, besides the person(s) who originally lost faith in their idols.
4. If a Christian is disobedient and refuses to go, God will raise up another to go, many times a person who is not as "qualified" as the one He originally told to go. I have often wondered why so many missionaries were women, even way back in the early 1800's before any denomination had female preachers, much less Baptists. Perhaps this is God showing men who were disobedient that He will use anyone who heeds His calling, even to the point of embarrassing them by sending those who the "pharisees" would disqualify. After all, it was women who had to convince His disciples that He had risen from the dead!
5.While anyone can split hairs over any of this, I agree with you, that there is NO salvation outside of believing in Jesus, which in my view would include Old Testament saints who had faith. The ONLY persons saved without conscious knowledge of Christ, are infants who die and those adults who have no mental capacity to consciously believe. This is stated plainly in almost all Baptist confessions of faith both predestinarian and non predestinarian.
Dear brother Ken:
Here are three (of many) posts in which I deal with this question. In Oliphant vs Pence the words of Hardshell Oliphant sound a lot like what Flowers, et als, said in the video.
https://old-baptist-test.blogspot.com/2014/08/oliphant-vs-pence.html
https://old-baptist-test.blogspot.com/2011/10/more-of-griffins-logic.html
https://old-baptist-test.blogspot.com/2011/06/dr-howell-on-hardshellism.html
The latter has quotations from Dr. WBC Howell (SB early President) and I don't think he would agree with Flowers.
Thanks for the comment
Bro. Stephen, I received a response from Leighton Flowers. He says his view is explained in the video starting about 46:13 where someone asks "is general revelation enough for someone to know and be saved?" Flowers says he goes on to say that God only holds them accountable for what they KNOW. IF they respond to what they know about God, then he will send someone to take them further in knowledge, and he gives the example of Cornelius. He should've been more blunt in the video, but he did seem to affirm to me that he mostly agrees with my synopsis above. He does seem to believe tho, that you can be "saved" by believing in God thru general revelation, but God will not leave you with that, and that someone will be sent to teach you the fullness of what you have already believed. If you genuinely believed the general knowledge that you had, then you will respond positively to the gospel. He and I would disagree on that point, as I don't believe they are saved UNTIL they know of and receive Christ. I make a distinction between being kept "safe" until you hear the gospel, and being "saved" or regenerated. Anyways just thought youd like to know.
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