Two Seed Baptist Ideology (XX)

The question that Lord God asks the prophet Job in the above text is intended to affirm that Job did not exist in any real sense when the world was created. Had God asked the same question to Daniel Parker, Gilbert Beebe, Samuel Trott, Wilson Thompson, and other apologists for Two Seedism, they would have answered - "Lord, you know that we existed from eternity in Christ, being in his loins as Levi was in the loins of Abraham." 

As we have seen in earlier chapters, the idea of the preexistence of souls was not only a leading tenet of Two Seedism among "Primitive Baptists" but also of other Christian cults, such as in church father Origen, and some sub cults within Catholicism. For instance I came across a book titled "Pre-Existence of the Souls of Christ and Mary. Falsification of the Acts of the Second Council of Constantinople" (See here) In that book we read these citations (emphasis mine):

"The pre-existence of the Souls of Christ and Mary: Saint Gregory XVII taught this vital dogma in one of his first great doctrinal documents. It is an essential doctrine for understanding many Old Testament mysteries."

"Nonetheless, in the former Acts (falsified) of the Second Council of Constantinople is read: “If anyone should say or feel that the Soul of the Lord pre-existed united to the Word of God before the Incarnation and Birth from the Virgin, let him be anathema.” But this goes against the Bible, which has greater force, where Saint Paul says that “Christ, as Man, is visible Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of all creatures!” (Letter to the Colossians)." 

What these words show is that the belief of the Two Seed Primitive Baptists is also believed by other fringe groups of professing Christians. We have also stated that Mormonism also teaches the preexistence of souls, possibly a view that Joseph Smith and company borrowed from Parker et.al, seeing it was formulated in the 1830s and 1840s, and because Smith had read Parker's books on the subject and had been reading the "Signs of the Times."  

In previous chapters we have given the Two Seed view of Paul's "old man" versus "new man" wherein Two Seeders contended that the "old man" is the human being, or the Adam man's soul, body, and spirit, and where the "new man" is the preexistent child of God. Ironically, however, the Two Seed system makes the "new man" to be older than the "old man." 

The same may be true relative to Adam and to the "second Adam" in Two Seedism, for Two Seeders make the second Adam to be the "Mediatorial" Christ who was begotten in eternity past as the Son of God and which involved his obtaining his human soul. That being so, the human Christ, as the second Adam, preceded the first or earthly Adam, and must therefore be the first Adam and the earthly Adam then becomes the second Adam.

We have shown in previous chapters that one of the leading arguments of the Two Seeders was to affirm that the Son of God in being begotten by the Father, before the creation of the world or any other thing, was at that time "made" or "created" the "Mediator," or "Head," of all the "body of Christ," i.e. all the members of the church or body of the elect. This is why many of those who opposed the Two Seed wing of the "Old School" or "Primitive" Baptist church accused them of being "Arian." The scriptures however do not teach that the Son of God has actually been a mediator, head, or high priest from eternity.

Christ the Head

Does the fact that Christ was pre-ordained to be the "head" of the church prove that 1) he existed as a human composite being from eternity, and 2) that the church or body of Christ existed from eternity?

Argument 

Christ is not only the head of the church, but is 1) the head of every man, and 2) the head of all principalities and powers. If Christ has been the head from eternity, and if being head implies the existence of the entity over which he is head, then all men are uncreated eternal beings, and so are all principalities and powers. Notice these verses:

"But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." (I Cor. 11: 3 nkjv)

"...and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power." (Col. 2: 10 nkjv)

If we accept the logic of the Two Seeders, then we will have to conclude that every man, and every other thing, is uncreated and has existed from eternity.

In another article by T. P Dudley, as J. Taylor Moore gives it in Dudley's biography (See here), titled "ONE MEDIATOR" and written from Lexington, Ky., Dec.10, 1854. Dudley wrote:

"Would there be any more propriety in denying that we had any existence, antecedently to our natural birth; than in denying the existence of the manhood of our glorious Mediator, antecedently to his being brought forth of the virgin?" 

Again, we remind the reader that this idea of the preexistent manhood of Christ was taught by Joseph Hussey and other Hyper Calvinists at the start of the 18th century in England. We will have more to say about this in future chapters, especially when we look at Elder Lemuel Potter's writings against Two Seedism. Needless to say, the Bible does not teach such. Christ, as man, was created or begotten in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit. He preexisted his incarnation as the eternal Son of God, or Word of God, or second person in the Trinity.

Wrote Dudley:

"Jesus said, “I came down from heaven.” Was it the Godhead or the man that came down from heaven? As God, “Heaven is his throne; and the earth his footstool.” This is a very deep matter, and I dare not go beyond what is revealed. “Revealed things belong to us and to our children.” The world existed at least four thousand years before the incarnation of the WORD, was the world, in existence, these four thousand years without a Mediator? Who is the Mediator as known in the Bible? If we shall be told that Jesus Christ in his Godhead, or divine nature, was the Mediator during these four thousand years, we shall reply, is Christ not in his Godhead, or divine nature, essentially God? Is not God one? “Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but God is one.” Gal.3:20. The question recurs, Who was the mediator during those years? The bible reply is, “the same yesterday, and today, and forever.” But who is he? “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus.” I Tim.2:5. Now, if this mediator, this man, Christ Jesus, did not exist during that period, through what medium did Abel, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, with many others, approach a mercy seat? What has become of the millions and myriads, who lived and died in these four thousand years?" 

It was God that came down from heaven. John 1: 14 is clear on this point. "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten Son of God, full of grace and truth." John says "the Word was God" and this God was made flesh.

The second question asks whether the Son of God was a Mediator prior to his incarnation. No, he was not. He was appointed to be such, but was not actually so. The Mediatorship of Christ is connected with his Priesthood. 

When Did Christ Become High Priest?

"This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." (Heb. 6: 19-20 nkjv)

"For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever." (Heb. 7: 28 nkjv)

"But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises." (Heb. 8: 6 nkjv)

"But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance." (Heb. 9: 11, 15 nkjv)

In order for the eternal Son of God to become a mediator and high priest between God and man, he had to become a man, because he had to be both God and man. He could only represent God to men as God, and he could only represent men to God as a man. So Paul testified: "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus." (I Tim. 2: 5 nkjv) The incarnation of the eternal Word and Son of God was essential to his work as a savior, redeemer, priest, and mediator. It is by his work as such that he is able to "reconcile" God and condemned men.

The above texts tell us 1) that the divine Son of God, before his incarnation, was not a mediator, high priest, savior, or redeemer, and 2) that his "becoming" such via his incarnation had retroactive results for all believers in the old testament. Therefore, Christ' mediatorial and redemptive work did not occur prior to his incarnation, and therefore the argument of Two Seeders is invalid, which says that the Son of God has always been priest and mediator even from eternity, and therefore his humanity must also have been from eternity. Such a view makes the incarnation unnecessary.

The above texts tell us that Christ' priesthood, which involved his work of mediation, began in time following his incarnation. His priesthood began with God's oath and is connected with the new covenant, and not with the old covenant, and this oath was not made before the law was given, nor from eternity, but in time.

Wrote Dudley:

"When we resort to the “more sure word of prophecy,” we there learn, “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” John 3:13. Again, “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” John 6:62. Again, “Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.” Eph.4:9,10."

The texts cited by Dudley do not prove that the humanity of Christ came down from heaven, nor that the man Christ existed from eternity. Wrote John Gill in his commentary on John 3: 13:

"Not that he brought down from heaven with him, either the whole of his human nature, or a part of it; either an human soul, or an human body; nor did he descend locally, by change of place, he being God omnipresent, infinite and immense, but by assumption of the human nature into union with his divine person: even the son of man which is in heaven; at the same time he was then on earth: not that he was in heaven in his human nature, and as he was the son of man; but in his divine nature, as he was the Son of God; see John 1:18..."

Prior to Christ taking upon him "the form of a servant" he existed in the "form of God." So, when he says he came down from heaven, he means he as God came down from heaven.

Wrote Gill further:

"...though this is predicated of his person, as denominated from the human nature, which was proper to him only in his divine nature; for such is omnipresence, or to be in heaven and earth at the same time: just as on the other hand God is said to purchase the church with his blood, and the Lord of glory is said to be crucified, Acts 20:28, where those things are spoken of Christ, as denominated from his divine nature, which were proper only to his human nature; and is what divines call a communication of idioms or properties; and which will serve as a key to open all such passages of Scripture..."

On John 6: 63 Gill writes:

"...ascend up where he was before? for Christ was, he existed before his incarnation, and he was in heaven before; not in his human nature, but as the word and Son of God: and he intimates, that when he had done his work, and the will of his Father, for which he came down from heaven, by the assumption of the human nature, he should ascend up thither again..."

Christ means that he existed prior to his incarnation as the eternal Word and Son of God. John 1: 14 says "the Word was made flesh" and tells us that his human existence is not coextensive with his divinity. We have already noticed what Paul wrote in Philippians chapter two when he speaks of Christ being in "the form of God" prior to his incarnation when he "took the form of a bondservant" and was "made in the likeness of men." Christ did not always exist in both forms from eternity.

Wrote Dudley:

"There are those who cannot, it seems contemplate the existence of the man Christ Jesus, except in communion with the body. Indeed, who deny his existence as man, antecedently to his being brought forth of the virgin. I would ask such, did you, or did you not exist, anterior to your development from your earthly parents? Is the one mystery more incomprehensible than the other? If we admit the first proposition, why reject the second; supported as it is by many unmistakable proofs?"

No, a person does not exist as a person prior to his being begotten in the womb. The Bible says nothing about the pre-existence of souls and has no basis in truth. The Bible makes it clear that every human being is a unique creation of God (Genesis 2:7; Zechariah 12:1; Jeremiah 1:5) and that each human soul begins at conception. (Psalm 139:13–16; Isaiah 44:24; Job 38: 4) 

Argument 

"For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." (Eph. 5: 30 kjv)

"For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body." (Eph. 5: 23 nkjv)

So, when and how do sinners become "members of his body"? When does Christ become the head of the church, his wife? The figure of body, with head and members, is one of several figures that depict the union that exists between Christ and his people. So, when is this union created? We do not deny that Christ and his people had a representative union before the world began when God (Father, Son, and Spirit) decreed that the Son become flesh and become the Lord, Savior, and Head of the elect or chosen people. But, that union is not vital or actual. Vital or actual union occurs when a person joins himself to Christ. One becomes a member of the body of Christ in time when he is united to Christ by faith and by being immersed into it by the Spirit. 

Testified Paul:

"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit." (I Cor. 12: 13 nkjv)

Notice that this verse denies that believers were vitally or actually in the body of Christ from eternity. They were "baptized" or "placed into" the "one body" by "one Spirit" when they were converted to Christ and placed their faith in him, when they "received" him, that is, when they embraced him. In Ephesians 4: 15-16 we also learn that the body of Christ is growing due to new members being added to it. This fact overthrows the idea that the body of Christ existed from eternity. 

Further, a man and woman become one, or one body, when they are married or joined together in marital union. Wrote the apostle Paul in confirmation of this fact:

"Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (I cor. 6: 16-17 nkjv)

So, when does a man become one body or one flesh with a woman? Is it not when the man and woman are joined together? Two Seedism must affirm that believers were joined to Christ from eternity. But, that denies what is plainly affirmed in the scriptures, which assert that the union of the believer with Christ occurs when a person receives Christ and unites with him by faith. Wrote Paul further:

"So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church." (Eph. 5: 28-32 nkjv)

A marriage between Christ and the church must occur before there can be an actual union. That marriage occurs when a sinner receives Christ by faith. That is when Christ and the believer become one body and one flesh. Wrote Paul to the Corinthian believers:

"For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." (II Cor. 11: 2 nkjv)

If these believers had been united to Christ from eternity, then why does Paul say he has betrothed them? Also, Paul wrote the following to the Roman church:

"Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God." (Rom. 7: 4 nkjv) 

This is another text that tells us that believers were not married to Christ from eternity.

Interesting is the comment that John Gill makes on this text in his commentary. He wrote:

"that ye should be married to another; or "that ye should be to another", or "be another's"; that is, that ye should appear to be so in a just and legal way; for they were another's, they were Christ's before by the Father's gift, and were secretly married to him in the everlasting covenant, before he assumed their nature, and in the body of his flesh bore their sins, satisfied law and justice, paid their debts, and so freed them from the power of the law, its curse and condemnation, or any obligation to punishment; all which was done in consequence of his interest in them, and their marriage relation to him; but here respect is had to their open marriage to him in time, the day of their espousals in conversion; to make way for which, the law, their former husband, must be dead, and they dead to that, that so their marriage to Christ might appear lawful and justifiable..."

It is such commentary as this that no doubt helped to bring about Two Seed ideology. He affirms that believers were "secretly married" to Christ from eternity. He says that being married to Christ by faith is but "their open marriage to him in time." Gill was no Two Seeder, not believing in the preexistence of the souls of the elect, but he came mighty close to it. He did after all accept a lot of what Joseph Hussey taught as respects Hyper Calvinism and the preexistence of the humanity of Christ.