Jason brings up John Ryland Sr. once again. He does not know when to admit defeat. I showed that Ryland's statement to Carey cannot be proven to have taken place at all. Thus, one cannot make an absolute argument based upon it, for it is mere hearsay. Secondly, even if we grant that it was said, it is clear that Ryland believed that the time for mass foreign evangelism was not yet, eschatologically speaking.
Tom Nettles (Baptist History Professor) wrote on this supposed incidence.
"According to J. W. Morris, an ostensible eyewitness, the famous interchange between Ryland Sr. and Carey took place in 1786 subsequent to the Baptist minister's meeting in Northampton, England. The ministers that stayed behind engaged in 'desultory conversation' until Ryland Sr. entered the room; he 'in his accustomed freedom' asked the young ministers Carey and Morris to 'propose questions for general discussion.' Morris suggested that the ministers discuss the latter part of 2 Peter 2: 1. He records that 'he was very ludicrously told to go home and read Gill and Brine...and not to come there with his Arminian questions.' To Carey's proposal Ryland Sr. responded, without waiting for the rest of the company to pitch in, 'that nothing could be done before another Pentecost, when an effusion of miraculous gifts, including the gift of tongues, would give effect to the commission of Christ as at first;' and that he was a most miserable enthusiast for asking such a question.'
Clearly Ryland's objection to church sponsored foreign evangelism had nothing to do with his idea that the gospel was a means of producing that faith which is necessary to salvation. It had to do with whether such mass foreign evangelism was providentially warranted for the time. He certainly believed that the preaching of the gospel was the instrument for salvation, for he allows that preaching the gospel to the heathen was done for salvation when the apostles were under the commission, and that it will also be for the mass salvation of the heathen when there is another Pentecost. Also, he was more concerned about evangelism in England, about saving the lost there by gospel preaching.
Nettles continues:
"The most recounted event and words of Baptist mission history recede into uncertainty as one seeks to understand precisely what was said, when it was said, why it was said, and what it meant. One thing is certain, however. The event established that the mission efforts of the English Baptists rode on the back of a mammoth struggle for the use of means in worldwide propagation of the gospel. One manifestation, usually but falsely associated with the Ryland-Carey encounter, is hyper-Calvinism. Based on closely argued, but fallaciously conceived, ideas concerning the inability of fallen humanity to repent and believe, hyper-Calvinists concluded that the unregenerate have no duty for such response to the gospel. In the same way, gospel ministers had no warrant to call on the unregenerate to repent of sin and believe in Christ. Thus, they constructed their answer to the so-called 'modern question.'
Nettles testifies that it cannot be known for sure exactly what was said, nor why it was said, and what it meant. Jason wants to tell us what he thinks was said, what he thinks it meant, and why Ryland Sr. said what he said, and expects us just to swallow it without trial and investigation! He is so intent on finding someone, before the 19th century, who believed that faith in Christ, by the gospel, was not necessary for being eternally saved, that he takes the supposed words of Ryland, and without serious investigation of the truth of the matter, he puts his interpretation upon them. But, Nettles sets the record straight here, and he is one who has thoroughly studied the matter.
Notice also how Nettles correctly points out that the hyper-Calvinism of the period concerned duty faith and how to address the lost, not concerning whether means are necessary for salvation, or that faith in Christ is necessary for new birth.
Nettles continues:
"The real issue between Carey and Ryland Sr., however, concerned another way of construing means. Is the church presently called to send forth gospel laborers to the heathen world in the absence of a sure divine indication that the days of the 'latter-day glory' are upon us? Among those Particular Baptist Churches, the 'modern question' had been largely settled before Carey's proposal. the 'latter-day' question was a matter of serious discussion." ( pg. 89, 90 under "The Obligation to Use Means" or "Invoking the Latter-Day Glory," and in the book "The Great Commission: Evangelicals and the History of World Missions," by Martin I. Klauber and Scott M. Manetsch)
This is more proof of what I have previously affirmed in my rebuttals to Jason's "take" on the views of Ryland. I show that the statement of Ryland, or his opposition to foreign missions, must be viewed in the context of eschatological timing of mass foreign evangelism.
Nettles continues:
"A more substantial question concerns the motivation for the Contemporary writers almost universally discuss it as a rebuke coming from hyper-Calvinistic convictions. Willam R. Estep wrote, 'There is no question in the meaning of the exchange. The response was characteristic of both the man and the hyper-Calvinism predominant among the Particular Baptists at the time.'
The difficulty with Estep's conclusion is threefold: Ryland Sr. maintained high but not hyper-Calvinist theology and chastened high Calvinists that would 'neglect the unconverted'; the Baptist association in which the statement was made was not a hyper-Calvinist association but replete with ministers that took the positive side of the 'modern question'; and the content of the rebuke concerned not the duty of calling sinners to repentance and faith, but the means by which the conversions of the latter days would be initiated.
"As Morris reported the rebuke, it focused on the necessity of God's restoring extraordinary means before the latter-day glory would begin. The younger Ryland's footnote discussion addressed only the 'latter-day glory more than my father,' Ryland Jr. certified. His father expected that long before Christ reigned personally on the earth 'the gospel would be spread all over the world, and the fulness of the Jews and of the Gentiles be brought into the church.' Ryland Jr. never recalled his father's anticipation of the restoration of miraculous gifts for that time."
See here
So, this should settle the matter for it reinforces what I first proved.
Consider also the fact that John Ryland Jr. agreed with Carey and supported him in his mission work. Ryland Jr. was an associate pastor with his father for five years before becoming sole pastor! How could his father disagree with his son on such a fundamental issue about means? Did the church agree with Ryland Jr.? Obviously yes! Both the father and the church agreed with Ryland Jr.
Consider also that Ryland followed closely the writings of John Gill and John Brine, both who taught means in regeneration!
Jason says that Ryland Sr. rejected means, but notice these citations and see if this is so or not.
"...nor is any inference deduced from Scripture to be considered as just, that has any tendency to impurity of morals: and consequently the ABSOLUTE NECESSITY of holiness, its connexion with salvation, and the obligations which all are under to the performance of every duty which God commands, ought to be strongly urged on the conscience: and likewise faith, which derives strength and grace from Christ, with an hope of obtaining the salvation of our souls, ought to be insisted on: all Scripture must be explained agreeable to our eternal obligations to universal holiness: and we do infinite injury to the Scriptures if we give the least countenance to immorality." (pg. 234)
"...to show that good works certainly attend and flow from that faith, which apprehends the justifying righteousness of Christ, and that no man hath sufficient ground to conclude upon his justification, who is not the subject of such a faith." (pg. 246 in "Contemplations on The Beauties of Creation & The Glorious Gospel #09"
"By grace we are saved. Eph. 2: 8. The kindness and love of God our Saviour towards men, appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done; but of his mercy hath he saved us. Tit. 3: 5. It is of faith, that it might be by grace. Rom. 4: 16." (pg. 264 in "Contemplations on The Beauties of Creation & The Glorious Gospel #10")
http://www.johnryland.co.uk/john-ryland-snr/
"If we have the Spirit of Christ, we shall love his cause, delight in his image, seek the welfare of his people, long to promote his kingdom, and rejoice to see others called. We shall set our affections on things above, where Christ sitteth at the right hand of God. We shall live here as strangers and pilgrims, who seek a better country, that is, an heavenly one." (in the sermon "The Indwelling of the Spirit," ibid)
"Judas saith unto him, (not Iscariot,) Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the World? JOHN xiv, 22"
"True faith is a high and exalted thought of Christ, the testimony of God concerning him being received as true, and good as well as true, so that he is accounted altogether lovely, and, his salvation worthy of all acceptation. He is considered worthy that God should entrust his glory, and we our immortal souls, in his hands. Thus they who applied to Christ when he was upon earth, came with a confidence in his power, and a high opinion of his goodness, tenderness, and willingness to relieve; but without an assurance of his goodwill to them in particular." (In "The nature and evidences of divine manifestations," ibid)
Ryland also said, in a 1790 sermon:
"Some High Calvinists neglect the unconverted; but Paul left no case untouched. He spoke properly and suitably to Felix as well as to Timothy. Some neglect to preach the law, and tell their hearers to accept Christ. O sinners, beware! If Christ says, ‘Depart’, tis all over...Your souls are within an inch of damnation. I am cleared of your blood. If you are condemned, I’ll look you in the face at the judgment, and say, ‘Lord, I told that man - I told those boys and girls, on the 29th of August 1790 - I warned them - they would not believe - and now they stand shivering before thy bar (33)."
It seems clear to me that Ryland Sr. was no Hardshell and did not deny means and the necessity of faith for salvation.
Consider also that John Collett Ryland, Sr (1723-1792) was converted under the preaching of Benjamin Beddome and joined Bourton Chapel on October 2, 1741. Soon afterward, the church sent him to Bristol Baptist Academy for training as a minister. This shows that he was no Hardshell for they denounce all theological schools! It also shows that the contention of the Hardshells, that theological schools, in the early 1800s in America, were innovations, is false.
One of the officiating ministers at Ryland Sr.'s ordination was John Brine of London. Ryland had a close association with John Gill. This shows that Ryland Sr. believed in means for both Gill and Brine are on record as believing in means.
"Robert Hall, Sr. (1728-1791) was a pastor of the village church of Arnesby in Leicesterchire who preached at the Northamptonshire Association of Particular Baptist Churches in May of 1779. According to Joseph Ivimey, 1779 was the “commencement of a new era in the history of our denomination.” Hall’s text at the Association was, Isaiah 57:14 - “Cast ye up, cast ye up, prepare the way, take up the stumbling block out of the way of my people.” A major stumbling block Hall was concerned with was that the doctrines of grace are no barrier to gospel preaching. Although the sermon covered various topics, it is especially remembered for its warm evangelical Calvinism and encouragement to preachers to press the claims of the gospel earnestly upon their hearers. Hall declared,
If anyone should ask, Have I a right to apply to Jesus the Saviour, simply as a poor undone perishing sinner, in whom there appears no good thing? I answer, Yes; the gospel proclamation is, ‘Whosoever will, let him come.’ ‘To you, O men, I call and my voice is to the sons of men’, (Prov 8:4). The way to Jesus is graciously laid open to everyone who chooses to come to Him (39)."
All the above citations are from "History of the English Calvinistic Baptists, 1771-1892
From John Gill to C.H. Spurgeon," Pastor’s Fraternal - Heritage Church, Fayetteville, Georgia.
If Hall preached this in the church pastored by Ryland, it is highly likely that Ryland agreed with Hall.
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