Again, in Dr. Throgmorton's first negative speech, he said:
"Many Hardshells hold that it is the dust man, the man formed of clay, that is the subject of the new birth; and, hence, that the wicked have no immortal souls. Many dispute this, and hold to the orthodox view; but they do not make it a bar to denominational fellowship."
In this statement Throgmorton is affirming that as late as 1887 that the Hardshells still had many in their sect that held to "Two Seedism" ideas. He also affirms that the Hardshells still as yet did not make such Two Seed doctrines a "bar to fellowship." His point is to show the utter inconsistency of the Hardshells not fellowshipping Missionary Baptists, for supporting missionaries and preachers, and for teaching children in Sunday Schools, etc. They can fellowship the awful doctrines of the Two Seeders but not the efforts of Mission Baptists to spread the gospel and knowledge of God!
Throgmorton continued:
"There are many among them who hold that God's children are as eternal as himself; and that the devil is self-existent, and his children as old as himself; that not a single one of Satan's children was represented in Adam when he fell, but were added afterward; that two men may be the children of the same parents and yet one be a child of the devil from eternity and the other be a child of God from eternity. Others do not believe these things. Neither view, however, seems to be a bar to denominational fellowship."
As I have shown in other postings, even Elder Sylvester Hassell acknowledged the presence of Two Seed doctrines among the Hardshells late into the 19th century. See "Hassell On PB Two Seed Ancestry" (here) and "Rebuke the ultraist" (here) and "The Ultraist Response?" (here).
Throgmorton continued:
"Hardshells have many among them who deny the resurrection of the body. These are “two-seeders." Others hold to the orthodox view. Neither view, however, is a bar to denominational fellowship.
I have made all these preliminary statements because I think they may help us to a better understanding of the question; and because they show, as I think, the utter inconsistency of our Hardshell brethren in taking the position they do relative to fellowshipping missions, Sunday-schools, etc."
Yes, the "utter inconsistency of our Hardshell brethren"! They declare against those Baptists who work to teach the gospel to every creature but fellowship all kinds of heretical doctrines.
Throgmorton continued:
"I hold that the Missionary Baptists, as I have described them, are the Primitive Baptists, and that the Hardshells are not. In support of my position I shall argue, first, from Scripture; secondly, from history."
In every debate on who is the real "primitive" Baptist the Hardshells lose.
Throgmorton continued:
"First, then, the New Testament Baptists — the original Baptists, held that the Gospel should be preached to every creature, and that all men should be exhorted to repentance and that repentance and faith are duties as well as graces, and that the reading, and especially the preaching, of the Word of God is a means for the conviction and conversion of sinners."
This is a fact that cannot be denied. This was also the leading view of the first Hardshells.
Throgmorton continued:
"This is a matter so plain as to be settled in a very few words. The commission, as given by Mark, was: "Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature." — Mr 16:15. Nobody but the most obdurate hyper-Calvinist would contend in the face of this for a moment. It is too plain to need argument. The commission by Matthew also sustains the same idea: "Go, ye, therefore, and teach all nations." —Mt 28:19."
That is what the Hardshells are, "obdurate hyper-Calvinist." They "resist the truth,"
Throgmorton continued:
"Then as to the duty of all men to repent: How did the first Baptist preach when he went out? He said, "Repent ye." — Mt 3:2 and he was talking to the impenitent. How did the Lord Jesus preach when he began his mission? He said, "Repent ye and believe the Gospel."— Mr 1:15. And he said this to impenitent unbelievers. When He commissioned the twelve and sent them forth, their burden was the same message, “they went out and preached that men should repent." The New Testament preachers did not spend their time arguing with men as to what men could do, or what they could not do. They urged men to immediate repentance, and taught them that without it they must perish, and so applicable is this teaching to the vilest of the vile that we find Peter exhorting a man who had neither part nor lot in the matter of salvation, but who was "in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity," both to repent and pray. I allude to Simon the Sorcerer. The apostle spoke to him in this manner: "Repent, therefore, of this thy wickedness and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." —Ac 8:22. Surely if Simon was commanded to repent, every sinner ought to be so commanded. And, indeed, this is God's will. Paul so announced when he made his great speech at Athens, standing up in the midst of Mars Hill. Said he, “God now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." —Ac 17:30. Such was unquestionably the manner of preaching among the ancient Baptists of New Testament times. Who of the two denominations in this debate are Primitive on this point? Not the Hardshells, surely. We all know this who have heard much of their preaching and who have seen or learned much of their work. It is very uncommon to hear one of their preachers exhort the ungodly to repentance, and when one does it, he most generally makes an apology for it for fear somebody may think he is an Arminian. But I will give the testimony of one of their own writers concerning them."
What Hardshell wants to come forward and disprove these things?
Throgmorton continued, citing the words of Elder John M. Watson, Hardshell founding father, and author of "The Old Baptist Test":
"Speaking of his examination into their practices he says:—
"I was much surprised as well as mortified that they evinced so little concern about the unbrought” other sheep which the Savior said he must bring. They lay great stress on these words of the Savior, but do not regard other things which he connected with the bringing them in as they ought to do. I heard but few prayers for the sending forth of laborers into his field; nor did I see much concern in any way about them." —Dr. Watson in Old Baptist Test, p. 181.
Dr. Watson was mortified that his brethren were so far from the old Primitive Baptists on this important question. But I want to quote further from him. Speaking of deviations among the Hardshell ministry, he says: —
“But the worst deviation of all is, that of our not exhorting both saint and sinner as enjoined in the word of God. A Gospel without exhortations may not be another Gospel, but it is not a full one. * * * Paul employed 'much exhortation;' we only a little. * * * Who among us ever repeat the words, Repent ye — believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,' without mixing up the strong doctrine of repentance and faith with the exhortation? If the text be used at all, we employ them only in a doctrinal and not in an exhortatory way. * * * The very exhortations, admonitions, warnings and threatenings of the Bible itself, when repeated from our pulpits, are regarded by some ultraists as Arminianism. At least it would be very difficult for any one to preach them in their scriptural fullness without incurring the charge or reproach of Arminianism. * * * Some do not object if the believers only be exhorted, but contend it is wrong to exhort the impenitent sinner to repent, or the unbelievers to believe! etc. * * * This violation of our commission has engendered a spirit of coldness and indifference about those yet unbrought; by some they are not cared for, prayed for, nor preached unto."— Watson's Old Baptist Test, pp. 516- 521."
In this blog, and in the Hardshell and Gadfly blogs, I have cited much from Watson's work to show how today's "primitive" Baptists have departed from the faith.
Throgmorton continued:
"The Hardshells are not primitive as to the great commission. Listen to Dr. Watson a little further: —
"The Lord has ordained this way;" — that is, this way of preaching the Gospel; — “our violation of it in the nineteenth century will not cause it to fail; others will do the work; it needs must be done; and this may be the cause why so few are coming into our churches! We have violated our commission. ‘Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the Lord.' — Ibid., p. 520.
This is Dr. Watson talking of his own people. The Hardshells have violated the great commission! They do not preach a whole Gospel! Dr. Watson says so. Somebody else, however, is doing the work, he says. Hence, as to this point, Hardshells are not primitive. They are in disorder and rebellion, according to the testimony of one of their best and most learned men. Who is it that is primitive as to this matter? Evidently so far as Baptists are concerned, it is the Missionary Baptists. Our people exhort all men to repentance and preach the Gospel, as far as may be, to all, without apology, or fear of either Arminian or Calvinistic critics, and we are doing what we can, or at least we are doing something, to send the Gospel to “the regions beyond," that men there “may hear the Word of the Gospel and believe." Dr. Watson says the fact that the Hardshells have violated the commission “may be the cause why so few are coming into their churches!" The fact that we are striving to obey the commission may be the reason why so many are coming into our churches! There were wonderful in gatherings in New Testament times. Missionary Baptists have wonderful in gatherings now. We baptized last year in the United States a far greater number of persons than there are in the whole Hardshell denomination. Missionary Baptists are primitive as to their preaching under the great commission and as to their in gatherings. Hardshell Baptists are not.
This is a powerful rebuttal of Dr. Throgmorton! It leaves the Hardshells speechless and dumbfounded, and truly puts them on the spot.
Throgmorton continued:
"I said that repentance and faith are duties. Jesus said, when He came into Galilee preaching the Gospel, after John was put in prison, "Repent ye, and believe the Gospel." Mr 1:14-15. All men are commanded to repent. It is a duty. Paul and Silas said to the Philippian jailor, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Ac 16:31. Therefore believing is a duty. In Ro 10:17, we read, “So then Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word God." The Word then, is a means to the exercise of this duty."
All we can say to this is "amen"!
Throgmorton continued:
"In order to clear my way, I want to state certain points as to church co-operation about which both Missionaries and Hardshells are agreed. They both agree that a number of churches may unite together, by means of messengers appointed, and form what is called an association; and that this association may frame and adopt rules of order for its government; that it may elect officers, appoint committees, publish minutes, etc. It is agreed that such a body has no authority over the churches whatever, except in so far as it may prescribe its own terms of membership. Its province, so far as the churches are concerned, is purely advisory. It may advise the churches to pursue any course which in its judgment may seem wise. Hardshells are as much agreed among themselves that it is right to have such organizations as we are ourselves. Yet if I should ask for the word, "association," Brother Potter could not show it in all the New Testament as applied to such a body. If I should ask him for the chapter which tells of the permanent organization of such a body, with its moderator and clerk, its rules of order, its committees, its fund for minutes, he could not refer me to it. And every argument he could make for an association would be good for a convention, board, society, or committee. And he cannot be consistent and make arguments against conventions, societies and boards, which have equal force against associations. He must show that these mission bodies assume authority over the churches which associations do not, or he must show that in some other respect they do things which are unscriptural and which are not done by Hardshell associations."
Here Dr. Throgmorton showed again the "utter inconsistency" of the Hardshell apology for their anti stance against means to promote the spread of the gospel. If the Hardshells took their own line of argumentation consistently, then they would condemn their own associations, as well as other similar things that are not specifically mentioned in scripture.
Throgmorton continued:
"Now, let us define a little: A Missionary association is an association which appoints missionaries, and which undertakes not only to raise a fund for printing minutes, but also to pay the missionaries. This sets forth all the essential differences, as I understand, between a Hardshell Association and a Missionary Association considered in themselves.
Will my opponent say it is wrong for an association to appoint a man who has been ordained by church authority, to go out and preach, say for one year, here and there? Surely not. No more than it will be wrong for the Bethel Association of Illinois to appoint Brother Potter, when he visits it this fall, to preach at such a place on Friday night, at such a place on Saturday night, and at the Grove on Sunday."
In response to this argument, Hardshells should simply say "point taken." Such reasoning overthrows the utter inconsistency and hypocrisy of their apologetics.
Throgmorton continued:
"The wrong then is not in appointing a preacher. Of course he may accept the appointment or not. Is there anything wrong then in asking the churches and individual brethren to make up a fund to support the preacher? If so, I ask on what grounds can associations ask the churches to contribute to a fund for printing minutes? There is no direct Scripture for the latter. We do it on general principles. The same general principles would warrant the contribution of a fund for the support of the ministers. But for that we have express Scripture!"
The idea that nothing is to be done but what is specifically commanded is hereby refuted by Throgmorton. The bible's general principles may be used in justification of methods to teach the nations.
Throgmorton continued:
"Several years ago a number of Hardshell brethren came together, or at least consulted. They agreed they wanted a religious paper published, whose object should be to forward the interests of their people. The result was an organization, the raising of a fund, the appointment of a board of managers, etc. Soon editors were obtained, and the paper known as the Baptist Watchman, was published from Nashville, Tennessee. In the Baptist Watchman of October, 3rd, 1874, was the following notice: —
"CALL MEETING OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF THE BAPTIST WATCHMAN.
"At the request of two members of said Board of Directors I hereby call a meeting of the Board of Directors of the Baptist Watchman, to meet on Saturday before the third Sunday in November, at 3 o'clock p. m., at the Primitive Baptist Church in Nashville. C. W. Nance, President."
The Baptist Watchman was edited by Elder J. Bunyan Stephens and Elder R.W. Fain. I have this periodical on a USB file from SBHL. Both Stephens and Bunyan believed in gospel means. Further, even Potter wrote sometimes to this periodical and never attacked their view on means.
I also pointed out in my series on Hardshells and their anti seminary and anti education methods how the Hardshells now form their corporations for printing hymn books, Hardshell literature, etc. Yet, by the reasoning they give against seminaries and Sunday Schools, they condemn these things. "Consistency thou art a jewel."
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