Garrett Was A Young "Firebrand"?

Growing older does strange things to one's memory. I have remembered several times over the years the following words of brother Jason Brown to me back at the beginning of our discussion.

Brown wrote:

"Sometimes an abrasive approach incites controversy where the issues broached are not the real or only cause of division. Did Brother Garrett, while among the Primitive Baptists, approach these issues with humility and patience? Or was he as much as a firebrand then as he appears to be on his blog now? As a young Elder among the PB's in the early 80's, did Elder Stephen Garrett intreat the older Elders with the same respect he would his father, as the Scripture commands? I wonder how much of his difficulties were personality rather than doctrine. I appreciate and admire Brother Garrett's intellect and knowledge and I read his blog with interest even where we disagree. I am not arguing ad hominem against Brother Garrett's views here - I'm simply suggesting that Brother Garrett could have been more fruitful with patience. It takes wine time to ferment."

(Pot Calling The Kettle Black?)

Abrasive Approach?

Was I abnormally "abrasive" when I was a young Hardshell elder? Am I now?

That seems to have been the "gossip" or rumor that has been spread about me by the Hardshell eldership, especially since my having left the cult and since combating their numerous errors.

Further, though the Hardshells will likely admit that not all "abrasiveness" in speech and personality ("approach") is unwarranted or bad, yet in this instance it is viewed by Brown as a negative (which it generally is) as it relates to my years with the Hardshells as a twice ordained elder. It is further alleged that I am still "abrasive" in my "approach" towards the Hardshells. It seems that the implication of this is that I would do better apologetically to be gentle and smooth in my "approach" towards the Hardshells.

What is the antonym of "abrasive"? Agreeable? Smooth? Was I never the latter? If I was abrasive at times, and smooth at other times, was I abrasive when I should have been gentle and smooth, and gentle when I should have been abrasive? Is it okay for arresting officers to be abrasive with those resisting arrest or guards with prisoners? Is it okay to be abrasive with abrasive people, a kind of feeding them out of their own spoon, or answering a fool "according to his folly"? Is it okay to be abrasive with stubborn heretics who seek to turn away people from the faith? See my posting Rebuke Them Sharply where I discuss dealing with stubborn heretics.

Of course, there are several judges of this question regarding abrasiveness. God, first. Myself next (I must stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give account of what I have done as a servant and steward). Finally others (particularly among the saints) with whom I converse and associate are my judges. I wrote something on this awhile back in the posting Cockleburs Gadflies & Rubbing The Wrong Way.

I do judge myself and I pay attention to criticism. "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged." (I Cor. 11:31) I also consider Paul's words as applicable to my being judged by the Hardshells. "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self." (I Cor. 4:3)

In my response to Brown way back then I said this:

"If Brown will read the chapter on my experiences with the Hardshells he ought to see that it was men like John Robbins and C. M. Mills who were the truly "abrasive" types!"  

I was a little abrasive when I attended a deacon ordination service at Pleasant Grove PB Church (Bear Creek) back at the time when the "controversy" with my father over the origin and fall of Satan and the non elect angels was hot here in the Bear Creek Association. This controversy was not started by father, but was started by John Robbins and the Powell's Valley Association making father's view (and mine) a "test of fellowship." John's cohorts, two of which were virtual popes among a large segment of Hardshells, elders Clarence Mills (Bear Creek) and Wiley Sammons (Tenn.), were determined to force all other churches to follow them in their declaration against the view that Satan fell from "the third heaven." Mills and his young sycophants in the Bear Creek were determined to force this issue in the Bear Creek and to make it (and the view that the story of the rich man and Lazarus was literal and told of what happens to people when they die) a test of fellowship.

On the way to the ordinations service, I road in the car with two of my fathers in the ministry, my father in law elder Newell Helms and elder Charles Smith. Both did not believe that these things should be a test of fellowship and they were opposed, as I was, to asking such questions in ordination services by those pushing the edict of the Powell's Valley Association on the issue. We all three agreed that if a question was asked about Satan's fall or the right interpretation of the rich man and Lazarus that we all would then stand up and oppose such questioning and for making the issue a test of orthodoxy. Well, the time came for the questioning. Guess which questions were asked right out of the gate? Bingo!

Well, I looked at Charles and Newell, giving them opportunity to speak first (I being younger), and all they did was shake their heads in disgust. They never rose to say a word! Oh what a disappointment! They showed that they were cowards and that their positions in the Association was more important! I could not go silent! I rose and said that I objected to the line of questioning and the purpose behind it (which was to force the issue on the churches). I asked "What has the correct interpretation of these two topics or scriptures anything to do with whether the ones being ordained as deacons are qualified?"

""Humility and patience"?  Are those characteristics of the Hardshells?  Anyone who reads the lambastic words of the Hardshells, over the past two hundred years, can see that this is a case of "the pot calling the kettle black."  Anyone who knows their history knows that the Hardshells are of a very schismatic spirit and extremely abrasive." 

"I could have manifested "more patience"?  I was very patient!  Letting popes like John Robbins and C. M. Mills run roughshod over me.  Men like Elders Benton and McLamb insisted that I agree with them on the rich man and Lazarus in order to be ordained?  I put up with a lot of abuse from the Hardshells for many years and exercised lots of patience."  

"I am supposed to show love, patience, and humility towards Hardshells but what about their lack of showing such to me?  Why does that not get mentioned?  I could give numerous examples of the evil spirit that many Hardshells have manifested to both my father and myself.  Were the Hardshells who made the origin of Satan a test of fellowship operating from a meek and patient spirit?  Were those Hardshells who wanted to declare non-fellowship against any who believed that the story of the rich man and Lazarus taught what happens when people die operating from a spirit of humility and patience?"  

Elders who were my counselors (tutors) while a young Hardshell preacher in "boot camp."

Bear Creek

Newell Helms
Charles Smith

Other

Eddie Garrett Sr. (father)
Sonny Pyles
Norvel Mann
Milton Lillard
Paul Trautner
Lasserre Bradley Jr.
Rice Bolender
E.B. Watts
Cecil Darity
Conrad Jarrell
S.T. Tolley

I have memories of all the teaching and counsel I received from these men. Could write a book about that too. "Of the making of books there is no end."

P.S. I wrote most of this post a few months ago and it has been in draft. But, having just made the posting about PB Marines, Green Berets, and Boot Camp, I thought I would publish it now on its heels.

P.S. You want a good example of a Hardshell "firebrand" who became a popular leader among the Hardshells? Lee Hanks! Such fiery denunciations from this firebrand!

P.S. If we are appearing before the Bema now, then let us have a trial on Hardshell beliefs! If the saints are to do the judging, let us present our cases!

PB "Boot Camp" & "Green Berets"?

In the sermon by elder Sonny Pyles on the heavenly race of I Corinthians 9, which I have begun critiquing already in my series on the Bema of Christ, brother Sonny got off track in giving a short homily on "young preachers" that arise among the PBs. (listen here) I want to cite what he says and then make some comments and observations thereon. After all, I was once a young Hardshell preacher just as was Sonny himself. Or, just like his son David.

Said Sonny (4530 mark):

"Lots of times a young preacher-one preacher starts out, everybody's encouraging him, he's a little Christian celebrity. Folks hold him up on a pedestal, like this. He starts out trying to preach, he's a little Christian celebrity. He goes off to the big annual meeting and everybody looks around - here is out latest movie star. (laughs) Never heard anybody - I don't treat them that way. And, if the Old Baptists would wake up and put them through boot camp (amen, right), instead of telling them 'you're the greatest,' we would tell the, say, 'son, one of these days you'll get big enough to get some wings and then we'll let you fly.' But, we've got folks among us that want to put them to flying the first day. I don't handle them that way.  I don't handle them that way."

"Unless they overall me (his home church in Graham, Texas) any of them we turn out (ordain and send to preach) are going to be PB Marines, PB Green Berets, that know what we teach on any point of doctrine and can systematically defend it. We're going to turn out PB Marines."

I never was quite a "little Christian celebrity" when I was first ordained a Hardshell elder in 1974., though I did go through that Hardshell "boot camp" and can make some personal observations on that.

1. Boy, did I ever have several mean "drill instructors"!
2. And whew! did I ever have some cowardly fellow soldiers!
3. And what about them "squad leaders" among the Hardshells, i.e., hard hearted deacons and preachers with "screwball ideas"? Had to deal with them too!
4. And, oh those "drills"! Crawling to the feet of the local Hardshell popes! Under enemy fire all the time!
5. And, those lessons in warfare! Knowledge of how to avoid or deceive your enemies! Taught by the old "war torn" local generals! A Hardshell "war college"!
6. Able to defend systematically all Hardshell beliefs! All in a "single bound"!
7. The old generals like Pyles, who train the young recruits, and pushes them through boot camp, have medals of all their past victories over the enemy!
8. Was Sonny a young celebrity? If he wasn't when he was young, he certainly became one when he was older (grew wings and could finally fly?).

Pyles admits that many of his brethren "shadow box" in the fight, taking on no real opponent. He said many of them attack other groups in the pulpit, or "straw men," and that this was not really fighting the enemy but was mere "beating the air."

I agree.

Hearing Sonny say these things made me think of these words of mine from an old entry I made right after father died. In that post - My Conversations With Father - I retold words I spoke to father years ago when we were debating hardshellism: "Dad, I eat Hardshells and Campbellites for breakfast." 

(Actually I was rephrasing a line from a movie where Swartzeneggar was in a fight with a Green Beret dude and said to him "I eat Green Berets for breakfast")

Well, where are the Hardshell "Marines"? Where are the Hardshell "green berets"? Was not David Pyles first ordained and sent out by Sonny's church? Well, he is surely one of those "Green Berets"!

It is clear to me and others that there are no soldiers with "guts" among today's Hardshells. None who can come forward and defend their aberrant views systematically. Those who can't, by Sonny's criteria, are not Marines nor Green Berets!

Jason Brown was a trainee under Sonny and David. He came forth to fight and defend. We gave him credit for that. But, he has fled the battlefield. Any newcomers?

Gilbert Beebe vs. John Clark

Elder Gilbert Beebe

(1800-1881)

WHAT IS THE GOSPEL AND TO WHOM IT IS ADDRESSED

From Signs of the Times -February 15, 1869 (see here)

Said Beebe:

"...there is no gospel in telling men what they can and must do, or be damned."

But, Jesus and the prophets and apostles did this very thing!

Said Beebe:

"To call on dead sinners to repent and believe the gospel implies ability in them to do so, whereas the gospel proclaims that Christ is exalted to be a Prince and a Savior, to give repentance to Israel and the forgiveness of sins."

That is Pelagianism and totally contrary to what Beebe's forefathers taught!

Said Beebe:

"The gospel which we preach is good tidings to the meek; but if any part of our audience are not meek, it is not gospel, or good tidings to them."

That was one of the propositions of the first Two Seeders! Gospel is only food for those already saved and for no other reason! So contrary to both scripture and old Baptist history!

1804-1882

Wrote Elder John Clark (companion and later opponent of Beebe):

"The theory that we must preach to men according to the power they possess to obey is sublimated Arminianism, and yet; the advocates of it are very afraid of being called Arminians...To preach to men upon the ground that they have power to do what is commanded, or to refuse to preach to them because they have not the power, shows that the confidence is in the flesh and not in God; that they depend upon the will of the flesh and not upon the power God, and that is the very essence, double refined, of Arminianism. The minister of Christ does not preach to any class of men upon the consideration of their ability or inability." (see my posting here for the entire citation)

Elder Watson also stated the same. They represent the truth that their forefathers taught and Beebe's idea is pure Pelagianism. Such "screwball" ideas!

C.B. Hassell On Gospel Means

 (1809-1880)

"On the contrary we believe, the gospel is God's system of salvation for ruined man, and that He saves them by grace of His and not by works of theirs. Kehukeeites believe, that the Saviour took the law place and stead of his people, and for them and in their behalf fulfilled it to a punctilio...This they are made to believe by the teaching of the Holy Spirit, and this belief is counted to them for righteousness without the deeds of the law. They are then no longer under the law but under grace--no longer dead in trespasses and sins but alive to holiness,-- having their fruit unto the same and the end thereof everlasting life. This belief in Christ, caused by the teaching of the Holy Spirit, is their creation anew in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that they should walk in; and henceforward they abound in good works to God, begotten by the active principle of grace within them, not from a principle of slavish fear, by which they expect to escape eternal punishment." ("The Primitive Baptist"; March 8, 1845)

Hassell Names Founding Fathers

In Hassell's history, we find these words from the close of the chapter on the nineteenth century.

"Some of our ministers who have passed away during this century are the following: John Leland, John Boggs, Thomas' Fleeson, Gideon Farrell, Daniel E. Jewett, Samuel Trott, Joshua Lawrence, Blount Cooper. William Hyman, Thomas Barton, Ichabod Moore, James Osbourn, Burwell Temple, Gabriel Conkling, D. L. Harding, John Staddler, John W. Stamper, Thomas Briggs, William Whitaker, John H. Daniel, Robert C. Leachman, Philander Hartwell, Joseph L. Purington, Robert D. Hart, G. W. Staton, Wilson Thompson, John M. Watson, Isam Cranfill, J. F. Johnson, Clayton Moore, C. B. Hassell, Gilbert Beebe, Jacob Castlebury. Samuel Danks, R. H. Harass and Russell Tucker. My sketch of my father's life, and Elder Gilbert Beebe's autobiographical sketch, will be found in the Appendix to this volume."

What is highly interesting about this is the fact that Hassell (Sylvester alone, or in conjunction with his father, Cushings?) mentions men who were heretics (a fact that he either slights or refuses to mention throughout his history). Let me mention a few things about some of these men.

First, Daniel Jewett. He was the editor of "The Christian Doctrinal Advocate and Spiritual Monitor" in the early to mid 1830s. Many founding fathers of the Hardshells wrote to this periodical, such as C.B. Hassell, John Clark, etc. In this periodical we find them affirming a belief in the predestination of all things, regeneration or new birth by means of gospel preaching, the necessity of conversion and perseverance for final salvation. When Jewett died, C.B. Hassell married his widow, thus making Jewett's widow the step mother of Sylvester.  How can Hassell claim Jewett as one of his brother PBs when he believed these things?

Next, Samuel Trott. No PB will fellowship this man if he were alive today. He believed in the absolute predestination of all things, in means in rebirth, in eternal vital union, and denied the Trinity. He had other "screwball ideas" too. Knowing all this, how can Hassell claim him as a founding father?

Next, Joshua Lawrence. I have no doubt that Hassell knew that Lawrence believed in means in rebirth, absolute predestination, perseverance, etc. Yet, he claims him as one of his brothers and a founding father.

Next, James Osbourn. Hassell added this information about Osbourn in the same section:

"Elder James Osbourn was an Englishman, who traveled and preached much, and wrote many religious books. Elder Clayton Moore, of Martin Co., N. C, was a profound thinker and instructive speaker; and he, more than any other person, urged my father to undertake and myself to complete this History. Having the published lives and writings of Elders John Leland and Wilson Thompson, I will add some interesting particulars in regard to them."

Have we not shown in postings and citations from Osbourn that he believed exactly as the men just mentioned?

Next, Wilson Thompson. Hassell knew of Wilson's heresy regarding the Trinity, but he makes excuses for him! He also fails to mention the other heresies and "screwball ideas" of Thompson. Like others (such as the first leaders of the Bear Creek Ass.), Thompson held that Christ's human body preexisted before his incarnation and birth in the womb of the virgin. In spite of all this, Hassell wants to claim him as a founding father! He can fellowship such men but not Arminians?

I had rather fellowship them than some of these "screwball" teachers.

Next, John Watson. Really? So, Hassell claims the means PBs as his brothers? Would our modern PBs do the same?

Next, Gilbert Beebe? Really? What PB today claims him? Absoluters yes. But Hassell? What about the other serious errors of Beebe? (Who believed just as Trott)

Come on, my Hardshell brothers, tell us whether Hassell was correct or not in affirming that these men were of the PB family?

On "Zion's Advocate"

The following is taken from the primitive Baptist library web page. (see here)

CATALOG OF PRIMITIVE BAPTIST PERIODICALS IN THE COLLECTION OF

The Primitive Baptist Library, 416 Main Street, Carthage, IL 62321

Z I O N ' S A D V O C A T E
(Established in 1854)

The first issue was issued at Front Royal, Virginia, January 1854, by Elder John Clark, who was editor for about thirty years except for the period from 1864-1870. After his death, in 1882, it was published for several years by Elder C. H. Waters (1849-1920) as editor, and Bro. J. G. Wiltshire as publisher. In February 1891 the paper was purchased by Elder T. S. Dalton (1846-1931), who merged it with the Herald of Truth, and served as editor until 1898. Elder John R. Daily (1854-1920) then served as editor for eight years. In May 1906 Dr. C. H. Waters resumed the editorship for several years. Elder R. H. Pittman purchased the paper in May 1919, and in January 1921 purchased The Messenger of Truth from Elder F. P. Branscome. In March 1923, the Gospel Messenger was merged with it.

ELDER JOHN CLARK, FOUNDER AND EDITOR 

1854 (Vol. 1) - PBL - Complete (bound); PBL (film); Duke (complete)
1855 (Vol. 2) - PBL - May 1,15, Jun 1,15, Jul 1,15, Aug 1,15, Sep 1,15, Oct 1,15, Nov 1,15, Dec 1,
Duke - complete (we made a xerox copy of their entire volume)
Univ Virginia Charlottesville - complete
1856 (Vol. 3) - PBL - (Jan 1 digital), Jan 15, Feb 1,15, Mar 1,15, Apr 1,15, May 1,15, Jun 1,15, Jul 1,15, Aug 1,15, Sep 1,15, Oct, 1,15, Nov 1,15, Dec 1,15 (complete)
Duke - complete
Univ Virginia Charlottesville - complete
1857 (Vol. 4) - PBL - Complete (bound)
1858 (Vol. 5) - PBL - Complete (bound) (two copies)
1859 (Vol. 6) - PBL (orig.) - Jan 1,15, Feb 5, Apr 15, May 21, Dec 15
PBL (film) - complete
1860 (Vol. 7) - PBL (film) - #1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20, 21, 22 (#1 and #2 are mutilated; missing #5, 9, 18, 23, 24)
Duke - complete (we made a xerox copy of their entire volume)
Univ Virginia Charlottesville - complete
1861 (Vol. 8) - PBL (orig) - Jul 6 (#13),
PBL (film) - 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10 (missing 2, 5, 9 and 11-24)
Duke - complete (we made a xerox copy of their volume, Nos. 1-10)
Univ Virginia Charlottesville - 1-17, 19-23.
University of Western Ontario is supposed to have Vols. 7 and 8.
1862 (Vol. 9) - Univ Virginia Charlottesville - complete except #1
1863 (Vol. 10) - Univ Virginia Charlottesville - complete except #7 and #24 

If Elder Webb's library has had old copies of the periodical under the editorship of Clark, why has he not made this more easily available to the PBs of today? Why have other PBs not wanted to reprint articles from that time period? Could it be because it reveals things about their beliefs of the time that are contrary to today's PBs? Recall that I cited early in my book on "The Hardshell Baptist Cult" from the history of the Mississippi Baptists by Hardshell Griffin (1850s) in which he stated that he wished that he could "hide in oblivion" historical evidence that the Missionaries were the real original Baptists. He could not hide it, however, and so published it.

There are many things in Hardshell history that their leaders would like to "sweep under the rug."

Did You Know?

Did you know that the southern "Primitive" or "Old School" Baptists in the time leading up to the American Civil War began to vehemently denounce the great Charles Spurgeon because of his opposition to slavery? If one reads the issues of "The Primitive Baptist" periodical during that time he will see many writing in strong denunciation of Spurgeon over this matter. Some said he could not possibly be saved because of his position.

Now, to me, this reveals a lot about the cult.

P.S. Hassell's history quotes Spurgeon often and favorably, but they always call him "Mr." C.H. Spurgeon.

Research At Duke University

For many years I have been trying to locate copies of "Zion's Advocate" that was started by Elder John Clark of Front Royal, Virginia. I have been hoping that the old issues (1854-1882 when Clark was alive and editor) would be made available by Google Books or some other entity. They have not. Over the years I have found that some of these volumes were at various seminary libraries, but they had but a few of them. SBTS and Southeastern have a few. But, Duke has most all of them! I have these old volumes set aside by the Duke library for me to come and read and copy. I plan to do this on Monday. It is about a 2-3 hour drive to Durham and I expect to be there all day. At last! I get to read all those old issues for that time period. What do I expect to find? More historical evidence to uphold the things we have asserted here in relation to Clark and the Old Baptists regarding means in the new birth, predestination, and on the perseverance of the saints.

Pray for us. I am sure we will have a lot to share with our readers in the future on what is contained in those volumes!

Question: Why have Hardshells not preserved these volumes under Clark's editorship? Was it not because they wanted that information "buried in oblivion"?

I also plan to complete my series on Redemption, on the Bema, and on ordination practices.